Telegraph article 'NHS trans row as men get access to women's wards if they identify as female'

[R0wantrees]

(extract)

"Hospitals routinely allow male patients to share female wards if they self-identify as women, an investigation by The Telegraph has found.

Despite official guidance intended to eliminate mixed sex wards, none of the NHS trusts in England require a patient to have begun transition for them to be treated as their preferred sex, according to responses to more than 100 Freedom of Information requests.

One trust even advises staff to consult with the transgender patient if a female victim of sexual assault objects to sharing facilities with someone who may be biologically and legally male.

The NHS is unable to track how many transgender people are accommodated on wards for the opposite sex because data systems record them as their “preferred” sex.

The Department of Health’s “elimination of mixed sex wards” guidance upon which individual trusts must base their policies says that “men and women should not have to share sleeping accommodation or toilet/bathroom facilities”. But the document adds, “except where it is in the overall best interests of the patient or reflects their patient choice”.

As a result, a physically intact male has the right to choose to be treated on a ward for women that is simultaneously declared to be single sex." (continues)

The Telegraph has been contacted by a nurse at a city hospital with a report of a patient identifying as a transgender woman who appeared to become sexually aroused on a female ward, causing distress to a group of elderly patients.

The incident raises concerns about the lack of “equality impact assessments” (EIAs) that should be undertaken by law to determine the effect on all groups that may be affected by transgender policy changes. EIAs seen by The Telegraph appear to have taken into account the impact only on transgender patients rather than on others who should also be considered because of their sex, age or religion." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/10/nhs-trans-row-men-get-access-womens-wards-identify-female/

This will have serious implications now it is becoming public knowledge.
see important article by Anne Harper-Wright & thread:

October 2018 'Sex, Gender & the NHS
Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie'

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

There's something gleefully sadistic about it.

It’s been used on here as a way of baiting women as well. With the aim of making them angry and slipping up so the rely can be reported for a deletion/strike.

We’ve seen this on threads about infertility, cancer etc. It’s an unpleasant technique.

Wordthe
We do talk about those things. We can't expect the moderation team to explain every single decision, they'll just decide to stop hosting any controversial topics full stop.
I might not agree with some of their decisions but I understand the environment in which they are making them, and it makes sense for them to err on the side of caution to divert criticism.
Just my 2p, of course.

Don't ever share traumatic experiences with someone who you suspect may have a cluster B disorder. They'll only use that information to hurt you. They're not capable of empathy or compassion.

AmoraObscura
Discussing this elsewhere, met with "trans people are more at risk, they're more likely to be victims than perpetrators"

FlyingOink
Less likely to be murdered than any other group in the UK, iirc

Going back to this exchange upthread, a while back I did some sums using publicly available numbers. It's back-of-the-fag-packet kind of stuff and I'd love to see a thorough statistical analysis.

For the general population of England and Wales (E&W), the annual homicide rate for the year ending March 2016 for males (13.8 per million population) was more than twice that for females (6.0 per million population).

The transgender population of the UK is generally given as 0.3% to 0.5%[1] of the UK population. The male population of E&W is 32,000,000 - 2,600,000 (Scotland) = 29,400,000.

At the 0.3% level, then if we look only at male transgender people[2], their homicide is rate 11 per million of population. (0.3% of 29,400,000 males, so 88,000, so 1[3] in 88,000 which is 11 per million of the population). That is, comparing male transgender people with men, they are slightly less likely to be murdered. And comparing them with women, they are twice as likely to be murdered.

At the 0.5% level, for male transgender people[2] the homicide rate is 7 per million of population. (0.5% of 29,400,000 so 147,000, so 1[3] in 147,000 which is 7 per million of the population). That is, comparing male transgender people with men, they are half as likely to be murdered. And comparing them with women, their risk of being murdered is about the same.

If you want to look at the risk male transgender people face compared with the general population (men and women), at the 0.3% level their risk is about the same and at the 0.5% level, their risk is lower.

The reality depends on which percentage of the population figure is correct. However, at the 0.3%/0.5% level we are not looking at some great disproportion of the risk of murder for male transgender people.

[1] If the (also asserted) percentage of the population being transgender is 1% then the risk they face is much smaller (a half or (about) a third) than the numbers calculated above.

[2] This is based on the assumption that there are equal numbers of male transgender people and female transgender people. If there are more male transgender people then the risk they face is smaller than the numbers calculated above.

[3] This is based on the figure of an average of 1 transgender person being murdered in the UK (this is more than just E&W so the figure of 1 is probably a slight overestimate) per year. As far as I can tell, the victims tend to be male transgender people.

fairplayforwomen.com/transfacts/

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3080711-UK-transgender-murder-rate

As far as I can tell nobody wants mixed sex wards other than a. insane TRAs, b. very naive young people, and c. people who think it will save money and don't give a shit about the impact on patients.

This!

1] If the (also asserted) percentage of the population being transgender is 1% then the risk they face is much smaller (a half or (about) a third) than the numbers calculated above.

Given that these were the figures used by the trans lobby in the Trans Equality Inquiry and clearly are meant to include all non binary etc I prefer to go with them.

They are their own figures, after all, and reflect the Stonewall definition.

And I think it's very unlikely to be 50/50 male/female because if you include cross dressers in the population that only refers to males.

Which in itself is a helpful reminder not to bargain with them or bring up past trauma as a justification for saying no. We just say no. They don't give a monkey's what anyone else has been through anyway.

This is exactly right.

One wonders if women and their families affected started suing the NHS and other public bodies (schools, universities, etc) when incidents occur putting themselves at risk) if this would make the organisations realise that the policies they are implementing are going to come at a financial cost.

I think that's what it will take. Unfortunately I think more women and children will be harmed first.

Feminist4areason
I suggested that earlier. I really think it's the only way to stop women's rights being destroyed completely.
We need a fighting fund and some decent lawyers. Then we could all chip in each time a case came up.
Money talks, we need to pool ours.

Julian Norman, barrister, said in the Q & A at the Woman's Place meeting in Reading that any woman thinking of bringing a sex discrimination/harassment case under these circumstances should contact her, but it would be hard going on the claimant and not to be undertaken lightly.

That’s the thing, it’s hard going on the claimant, and any women or child who was in hospital is likely to be starting from a position of not having a lot of fight in them/other important things to deal with. I completely agree that legal action is probably what it’s going to take, but I feel deflated and so angry that the people who are going to have to take it on are women who’ve been in hospital.

And as someone who’s been a patient on a gynae ward several times after surgery, I would bet money on at least one woman on a gynae ward who complains of a transwoman’s presence being told by at least one doofus something along the lines of “you may feel differently once your hormones have settled down or the anethestic has worn off.”

What about a class action type lawsuit? Set up a pressure group and use it as the plaintiff? I don't know much about the law but I'm happy to contribute.
I think the biggest issue is that most online payment systems are vulnerable to other pressure groups.
We'd have to find the way to raise money before anything else. Gofundme, PayPal, etc have all pulled support from various causes due to pressure.

I think there's scope to carry out other legal activity short of actually going to court, too.
LaMad has converted one solicitor's letter into a huge legal battle, why can't we do likewise?
Plus as a "pressure group" we'd get called on to give media comments, like JB or AC does, and every time that happens it gives credence to that argument. I'm not volunteering for that though!

I’ve looked at the policy for equality and diversity for my local hospital trust (and where the vast majority of my patients are treated). There’s only one mention of looking after transgender patients and it seems to suggest it’s on a case by case basis, taking into consideration the feelings of the transperson. No mention of the feelings of other groups. One of my professional roles is as a member of a GP committee made up of grassroots GPs and representing their views to other parties such as hospital trusts. I’m going to bring this up for discussion at our next meeting. I think many of my colleagues will be dismayed by this and I can immediately think of a number of patients (all women, of course) who would refuse admission if faced with the prospect of being in a mixed sex ward, regardless of gender identity.

I’ve looked at the policy for equality and diversity for my local hospital trust

Its worth looking for the single sex accomodation policy.

from the Daily Mail,

‘If you aren’t even considering other groups in your equality impact assessments, your policy cannot be lawful,’ said Amanda Jones, a barrister at Great James Street Chambers in London.

The NHS’s interpretation of laws about the rights of transgender patients is ‘a mess’, she added.

Brendan O'Neill (Spiked Online) on Sky News newspaper round up.

So far the clip has been viewed 40,000 times. There are thousands of 'likes' and retweets as well as and hundreds of comments .....all saying the transwomen are not women and we should be able to say that freely. It follows that they are not entitled to services and facilities designed for the female sex.

Short, sweet, punchy and demonstrating that the state and institutions are out of step with public opinion.

twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1084012866817196032

Joani Walsh, the journalist who wrote this story, has just made some brilliant points on twitter to Alex Sharpe - the TW barrister who refused to debate live on women's hour.

Alex claims people who are legally and biologically male are entitled to be admitted to female only wards & joani brilliantly challenged their claims.

See here & scroll down twitter.com/joaniwalshi/status/1084103995713642496?s=21

Joani Walsh, the journalist who wrote this story, has just made some brilliant points on twitter to Alex Sharpe - the TW barrister who refused to debate live on women's hour.

See also the very informed Twitter account,
twitter.com/2010Equality/status/1084143626337292289

Do be aware as Barracker has commented on current thread:

"can I please direct people to the original Medium articles on this.

The story broke there, in October, to very little fanfare. Shared on twitter, here on Mumsnet, and no journalists were interested at that time.

The writer of those original Medium articles has included a lot of data, and far more information than the Telegraph articles today and yesterday.

She's unpaid. She writes and investigates for free.
She's a mumsnetter."

thread with link to Anne Harper Wright's article and research:
OP Barracker Tue 16-Oct-18
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

"They were ALWAYS based upon 'gender'.
The evidence is in NHS documents from 2010.
And the Department of Health were told, by the NHS team, not to tell people wards were segregated by sex, because they knew the policy was based on gender.

But the DOH purposefully used the word sex to the public instead.

We've been deliberately misled."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

There has been discussion on a number of MN FWR threads with evidence of the NHS policies
Fairplay For Women have also being raising this for some time.

from:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3477104-NHS-say-ignore-parents-even-if-child-is-not-Gillick-competent

Here also is a direct link to part 2 of Anne's article: Your Medical Record And Your Ladybrain

https://medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

Having ascertained what the sex fields and gender fields are in our medical records, and having read the NHS documents determining how the data should be entered and used, I was confident that my own personal medical record would reflect the safety guidance. And perhaps look something like the linked examples above:

e.g. Sex = Female, Gender = unknown.

I submitted my Subject Access Request to my local hospital to look at my own medical record data.

And what I found was this.

My personal medical record sex field is BLANK. Unpopulated.

In a disturbing turn of events, the hospital that cared for me in pregnancy and childbirth, twice, doesn’t know what physical sex I am.

It is sure, however, that I have a ladybrain, though. Because there it is on my medical record. I have definitely never discussed my inner femininity with any doctor that I recall. I don’t remember asking that my adherence to stereotypes, or ladybrain mentality be captured on my medical record. Nevertheless, here it is, my female ‘gender identity’ that I didn’t know I had