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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I used the girls' room for the first time today

450 replies

GrinitchSpinach · 09/01/2019 23:44

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

I used the girls' room for the first time today
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Datun · 10/01/2019 14:11

*dare not

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:13

I am discussing if it’s helpful to constantly class woman’s spaces as safe unless there’s a man there, or if this might be sending the wrong message to children.

Who is doing that, though? When people say 98%, they know there is a 2%.

I’m pondering if it comes down to ‘the woman being uncomfortable’ vs ‘the transwoman being uncomfortable’ if it just comes down to who’s feelings are more important.

Again, safety trumps feelings. Why would you think it doesn't?

The two things aren't equal. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment. Should I object to getting DBS checked because I'm not a paedophile? My feelings take second place to the safety of the children who are being protected.

Earlywalker · 10/01/2019 14:13

Discomfort because a member of the cohort who regularly beat, rape and kill women is demanding to stand next to you when you're vulnerable is a very valid feeling. A man wanting validation because he's wearing a frock, not so much.

I think theyre both valid feelings, no matter how you word it to suit your bias.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:14

A transwoman who has bad intentions can make a woman’s space unsafe, so can a woman who has bad intentions.
I think the main issue is down to how a transwoman using the facilities would make a woman feel, which is perfectly valid. Obviously we should not just accept that woman may feel uncomfortable with no questions asked but then as it does regularly come down to ‘so what if a transwoman feels uncomfortable in the mens’ is there not an element of ‘my feelings matter more’ underneath it all?

No its about the fact that single sex facilities are needed for girls and women's safety, privacy and dignity.

This was the basis on which they were fought for.

Here is an interesting piece of historical study:
'Sexism in the "Bathroom Debates": How Bathrooms Really Became Separated By Sex'
Yale Law & Policy Review, Vol. 37, No. 1, 2018
by W. Burlette Carter

Abstract
This article challenges two widely-embraced theories about how public intimate spaces (e.g., toilets, locker rooms, showers, etc. hereinafter called “bathrooms”) first became separated by sex. The first challenged theory claims that the very first instance of sex-separation in public bathrooms occurred in 1739 at a ball held in a restaurant in Paris. Under this first view, sex-separation first emerged as a sign of upper-class gentility and elitism. The second challenged theory argues that a consistent practice of differentiating bathrooms by sex did not emerge until the late nineteenth century. According to this view, bathroom sex-separation was imposed when authorities overreacted to the notion of the intermingling of the sexes as women entered the workplace during the Industrial Revolution. Thus, the second view holds that bathroom sex-separation is rooted in sexism, paternalism and outdated Victorian notions of modesty.

This article provides evidence to show that, while widely embraced by media, both of these theories are wrong. The author traces the 1739 Paris ball to its origins (a ball celebrating the wedding of the daughter of Louis XV), and demonstrates that scholars misinterpreted that event. Moreover, she demonstrates that bathrooms have long been separated by sex, and that the primary reason for that separation was securing safety for women and children in an atmosphere of harassment. Indeed, the sex-separation laws that emerged during the nineteenth century labor movement were among the earliest anti-sexual harassment laws in the nation. They did not fail because they sought to protect women; they failed because they did not secure similar protections for male-bodied victims. At the same time, the author argues that some lower and middle class sexual minorities and others sometimes wanted or needed different rules. She theorizes that a common "safe space" was the masquerade balls. But even when they created such spaces by consent, and adopted intimate space approaches to suit their needs, authorities later forced them to abandon these approaches. Seeking to preserve their power positions, upper class sexual minorities may have cooperated in these suppression efforts.

Historians erred in recounting the history of bathrooms because they misunderstood the language of earlier eras, they failed to sufficiently consider women's history and they ignored the condition of the poor. Thus, as they propose an explanation of sex-separation that advances the interests of some sexual minorities, they offer a narrative that oppresses women and the female-bodied generally, especially those in the middle and lower classes. Such histories erase evidence of women's historic struggles with sexual assault and sexual harassment. They similarly ignore the struggles of the poor for safe intimate spaces.

Women and others must push back on approaches that contort women’s history. They are rooted in sexism and patriarchy, even when they may be intended to advance freedom for other groups."

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3311184

and a very informative speech about toilet design by a UK expert:
Professor Clara Greed, WPUK Bath, 1st November 2018
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD92aLqgtTA

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:15

I think theyre both valid feelings, no matter how you word it to suit your bias.

Sex segregation is not the result of bias!!

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:17

Seriously early, debate it.

This house thinks that sex segregation is the result of bias.

You go first.

littlbrowndog · 10/01/2019 14:18

Datun not got a bias
Facts aren’t bias
Feelings are just what they are

Earlywalker · 10/01/2019 14:19

We’re talking about feelings though datun you’ve just said a woman feeling vulrenable with a man next to her is a valid feeling, a transwoman wanting to be treated as a woman, is not a valid feeling. You’ve described why the woman might feel uncomfortable, but saw fit to forget to mention why the transwoman might, thus illustrating your bias.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:21

I’m discussing things. I know that’s not really welcome here unless you’re part of the echo chamber and shouting down transwoman but when pondering issues relating to the subject I thought some of you would atleast engage without getting on the defensive.

No-one's shouting.
Its an open forum so not an 'echo-chamber'
Providing facts and evidence is not being on the defensive.

Making unfounded allegations doesn't tend to enable civilised discussion.

GrinitchSpinach · 10/01/2019 14:22

Holy shit, nauticant, I hadn't seen that clip before of Zoey Tur grabbing and threatening Ben Shapiro. Good on Shapiro for keeping his cool in the face of that large person threatening to send him out in an ambulance for stating the fact that biological males are male. Insane that the other panelists kind of ignore the wildly inappropriate laying-on-of-hands and threat. When did this take place?

OP posts:
Beerflavourednipples · 10/01/2019 14:22

I am discussing if it’s helpful to constantly class woman’s spaces as safe unless there’s a man there, or if this might be sending the wrong message to children.

No one is doing this though are they, saying that Women's spaces are completely safe? They are statistically much much safer when they are all female.

You know this surely?

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:23

We’re talking about feelings though

You're wanting to focus on feelings and are skipping over a lot of facts and evidence.

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:23

You're confusing feeling something as a result of fact, with feeling something as a result of needing validation of a delusion.

The reason women feel uncomfortable is because of the fact of male violence.

Asking them to validate a delusion, for the men who are ignoring that fact, makes it worse.

Beerflavourednipples · 10/01/2019 14:25

a transwoman wanting to be treated as a woman, is not a valid feeling.

A transwoman is not a woman though.

'Woman' is not a 'feeling'. There are many many women out there who can tell you how they know this.

HumberElla · 10/01/2019 14:25

I think theyre both valid feelings, no matter how you word it to suit your bias.

Most of us here would agree both feelings are valid to that person. And both can be accommodated. But women’s spaces away from men are wanted and needed. Statistically they offer increased safety for women. What is your point of discussion?

NKFell · 10/01/2019 14:26

It's clearly dangerous for 19 yr old trans 'women' to use men's toilets so instead of addressing that, women should just let them in.

This woman 'feeling' is ridiculous and it's been done to death but for crying out loud, there is no such thing!! I'm definitely female, I'm pretty sure I'm a woman and have absolutely no idea what it feels like.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:29

No one is doing this though are they, saying that Women's spaces are completely safe? They are statistically much much safer when they are all female.

DBS checks make employing people who work with children and vulnerable adults safer, they don't eradicate risk or all children's services safe

Having drink driving laws and public recognition of the risks associated with driving whilst under the influence mean that people are safer due to fewer impaired drivers, this doesn't eradicate risk or make everyone 'safe*

nauticant · 10/01/2019 14:30

It seems to have been mid-2015 GrinitchSpinach.

Here's a piece in the LA Times applauding Tur threatening violence:

www.latimes.com/local/abcarian/la-me-ra-transgender-zoey-tur-20150724-column.html

FamilyOfAliens · 10/01/2019 14:35

That Ben Shapiro clip is chilling.

The presenter tells Shapiro that he must have known saying the trans person was a male would upset him. In other words, it was Shapiro’s fault that the trans person threatened him with violence. Shapiro brought it on himself.

Typical abuser behaviour.

GrinitchSpinach · 10/01/2019 14:38

That LA Times piece is raving bonkers: "she turned to Shapiro and gently put her hand on his shoulder." My arse!

And then Tur doubles down on the threat: "I should have put Ben over my knees and spanked him," she said. "He was acting out and being rude to others in public."

I wondered if Shapiro regretted his over-the-top remarks. On Friday, he told me by email that he stands by everything he said on the program, and he is appalled that anyone would support Tur.
"Factual truth is not offensive; it is truth," he wrote. "Factual truth is not bullying. And humor[ing] delusion is not kindness, it is cruelty to the mentally ill.

OP posts:
Datun · 10/01/2019 14:39

Shapiro himself analysed that clip. Tur threatened him after the cameras were turned off, saying he would see him in the car park.

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:40

Link.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=b6AJUv2KSzU

nauticant · 10/01/2019 14:46

Although we are deviating from the main point of the discussion, this branch is part of the wider discussion of women feeling uncomfortable at transwomen in their single-sex spaces. It's worth realising that the days are past where tranwomen in women's toilets = Hayley Cropper/shy effeminate teenage boys.

GCSocScientist · 10/01/2019 14:49

Early you do know that in almost all instances the male bodied are physically stronger and can overpower the female bodied, right? You are applying false equivalence.

Women's feelings of insecurity/discomfort have the weight of science behind them, they have cause to be insecure if 50% of the population are physically bigger and more powerful than them, and have a track record of using that strength to rape and murder them..

Men feeling insecure, in a woman's loo, oh please..they can stand up for themselves, they have body mass and muscle mass aplenty.

Datun · 10/01/2019 14:54

It's quite staggering that someone who appears to be of normal intelligence cannot see that people like Zoe Tur and the transwoman in the game shop are forcing people to to validate their delusion through quite obvious and blatant intimidation.

It's not the same as discomfort because of male violence. It's breathtaking that anyone could think it is.

It's even more of a mind fuck that that discomfort comes as a direct result of forcing people to validate that delusion !

You know that male violence that makes you feel so upset? Well unless you validate me into pretending it doesn't exist, I'm going to threaten you with it.