I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

How can a woman with a faith/culture/trauma/disability barrier avoid outing themselves if someone obviously male enters the single sex space they are in? Particularly considering to become upset, ask for alternative provision or even make a sharp exit may lead to being accused of bigotry?

I am utterly convinced that validation is a very sweet salve if someone has put themselves through all manner of internal struggles with their identity, to the point of hurting themselves. I don't think that when we compare 'validation' to all the reasons women need and want sex segregated spaces, we are saying validation is meaningless.

But the point is that it doesn't cancel out all the very good reasons why sex segregated space and services exist.

Really, really, really wanting something, to the point of self harm, because you have convinced yourself it is the only way to gain relief from your mental suffering, is not a good reason to disregard the needs and safety of every other user of a space or service.

womenarehuman.com/transgender-rights-activist-chad-sevearance-turner-has-history-of-sexually-abusing-children/

I never said their battles meant they should have access to woman’s facilities, I answered a question regarding them just looking for ‘validation’.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I was talking about transwomen using women's toilets, and used an example of what one transwoman had said on the subject. Transmen is a different issue, because, as EJennings said, the situation isn't symmetrical. Talking about transmen is effectively changing the subject to a completely different issue.

Now obviously not all transgender males who wish to use women's facilities are rapists or abusers. The point is, there is NO evidence to demonstrate that they are less of a risk to women and children on a population basis - than any other males.

GCSocScientist, Stefonknee's Twitter used to be full of such photos, but I think that they sometimes realise it doesn't help their cause. I've attached another couple of pics that I think reveal Stefonknee's views, but it's not difficult to find many such photos on many tw's feeds. I find a lot of their dress very stereotyped and sexualized, and nothing like most actual women I know. I would be really uncomfortable if I came across someone dressed like this in a women's changing room, but I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to say anything if I was alone; I'd just leave very quickly, and I wouldn't go back there.

Perhaps because the inmates know they are transmen? If my friend, who is tall, muscley with tattoos, a deep voice and facial hair came in, I’m not sure the woman would accept him.

Many women might percieve him as a transman and so female. As you say, if women knew then they would likely accept him.

If he was asked, he may well say he is a transman.

Alternatively, if percieved as male then why would he be challenged when as the thread demonstrates, women are unlikely to do this when the person is actually male for all the reasons discussed on the thread?

Unisex facilities aren't the issue though the original post was about the women's loos and so called "women's only safe spaces" aren't unisex are they. Also how many of the assaults in unisex toilets are committed by trans women or men verses cis gender women or men?

90% of assaults in changing rooms are committed in the 10% that are unisex. Giving access to transwomen, makes female spaces unisex. Both in theory and practice.

Early suggests, you limit it to those men with a GRC, and you can ask to see it on demand.

I've no idea how early thinks this would work in real life. Women, little girls, the elderly don't tend to demand documentation from middle-aged men who are already ignoring their boundaries and who are suffering from a delusion, mental health issue or a fetish. And a strong sense of entitlement.

There is no such thing as a man, with or without a GRC, who demands access, and is benign. Show them to me. Just one.

There is no such thing as a man, with or without a GRC, who demands access, and is benign. Show them to me. Just one.
What do you mean by this? That is quite a statement to make. You haven’t met every transwoman in the world to make a statement about them all. To want to be seen as a woman, does not automatically make them an bad person.

middle-aged men who are already ignoring their boundaries and who are suffering from a delusion, mental health issue or a fetish
You can dress up your issue as concern all you like, your beliefs are crystal clear. I’ve said it before but there is no use engaging with someone like you. Do you know what people openly said about gay people a few decades ago? Exactly what you just said. I’m not entertaining it.

Can you bow down to the dick just a wee bit more Early I don't think you're centering it enough...

I’m not entertaining it.

That's because you're idealogically driven.
I'm fact driven.

What are the reasons for a man to identify as a woman? Seriously? It's either a delusion, gender dysphoria, (which is a mental health condition), or a fetish. What other possible reason is there??

And yes any man who demands access, as I said in my comment, is not benign. Demanding that women lower their boundaries, is not a neutral act.

To want to be seen as a woman, does not automatically make them an bad person.

Here is where your ideology is exposed, early.

You see delusion, or a mental health condition as something that makes a person bad.

That's on you, not me.

You’re fact driven? Please tell me where the evidence is then that not one transwoman who would like to be seen as a woman and therefore use woman’s toilets, is benign?
Debbie Hayton? You all sing her praises, pretty sure she uses woman’s toilets?

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Why is it when anyone questions you, we’re bowing down to the dick or handmaidens? If you’re so sure in yourselves then I’m sure you can debate your views without naming names. Or are you just bowing down to the echo chamber and saying all the ‘cool’ things like a sheep with no brain?

You see delusion, or a mental health condition as something that makes a person bad.

No I see the use of the phrase you used - ‘not benign’ as bad. Don’t try and twist things.

Debbie Hayton? You all sing her praises, pretty sure she uses woman’s toilets?

Indeed, and I disagree with it. It's incredibly hypocritical to disagree with self id, but use it yourself.

I don't need to name names, you've just done that, not me. Again.

I asked you to give me the reason why someone would transition that wasn't either a delusion, a mental health issue like gender dysphoria, or a fetish.

You're so angry with the question, but can't provide an answer.

No I see the use of the phrase you used - ‘not benign’ as bad. Don’t try and twist things.

No early, you're being blind.

Plenty of transwomen have gender dysphoria, and are incredibly benign. But they don't demand access. That's the difference.

Why is it when anyone questions you, we’re bowing down to the dick or handmaidens? If you’re so sure in yourselves then I’m sure you can debate your views without naming names. Or are you just bowing down to the echo chamber and saying all the ‘cool’ things like a sheep with no brain?

This is not civilised discussion.

Debbie Hayton? You all sing her praises, pretty sure she uses woman’s toilets?

Gosh. Fancy that. You've missed the several lengthy threads where Debbie has been given a very hard time on here for precisely this.

Colour me shocked.

I centre women and girls Early which means putting their rights, wants and needs first.

If you prefer to concentrate on the demands of males at the expense of females then you do you.

You said show them to me. Just one
So I showed you, just one. And now I’m naming names. It’s actually laughable.

You're so angry with the question, but can't provide an answer.

I linked you the NHS page which provides an answer? That GD is not classed as a MH condition and various causes such as hormone imbalances in a pregnant mother affecting the fetus. There’s not a lot of research on it, but many people see it as similar to a ‘birth defect’, clearly you’re not one of those people as you know better than them - but to state your opinion as fact is not really fair is it?

Why would someone with benign intent demand anything?

As Datun says, that is not a neutral starting point.

You don't go into a shop and demand you are served first.
You don't sit down in a restaurant and demand a menu
You don't go to an interview and demand the job
You don't go out on a date and demand sex
You don't train as a male HCP and demand to do intimate gynecological procedures on women who have ask for same sex HCPs
You don't work as a career and demand you are allowed to undertake intimate services on an elderly lady.
You don't grow up as a man and demand everyone agree that you are actually a woman.

This is not civilised discussion.

Right, but the person I was responding to who said Can you bow down to the dick just a wee bit more Early I don't think you're centering it enough that’s civilised discussion? Bloody hell.

You can dress up your issue as concern all you like, your beliefs are crystal clear. I’ve said it before but there is no use engaging with someone like you. Do you know what people openly said about gay people a few decades ago? Exactly what you just said. I’m not entertaining it.

article linked previously, 'The Elephant In The Room' by Sue Donym

(extract)
"Allow me a tortured metaphor. Say that the entire LGBT community has gathered in a hall somewhere. They’ve all gathered for a nice vegan dinner, and the tables are laid out. Unfortunately for this gathering of the entire LGBT community, a large elephant has joined them. The elephant knocks over tables, eats all the lesbians dinner, and poops in the kitchen. Everyone at the gathering steadfastly ignores the elephant, despite the fact it is destroying the gathering. Eventually, one of the lesbians stands up, and complains about the elephant. The rest shout her down, kick her out of the gathering, and label her ‘elephant exclusionary’.

Gradually, the gathering and the hall is destroyed. The lesbians, kicked out in ever greater numbers for being ‘elephant exclusionary’, start making tofu in a bonfire outside. The gay men are still denying the elephant is even there as it repeatedly throws chairs at them. The elephant is smacking the bisexuals with a frying pan, and the transsexuals have been trampled. Everyone in the gathering is still trying to ignore the elephant.

Truly a tortured metaphor, but let’s give the elephant a name.

That name is ‘autogynephilia’.

I can hear you now, ‘auto-whata-philia?’. The word is difficult to get your mouth around. It is also a verboten word. People whisper it in dark alleys level verboten. Like ‘Voldemort’ in Harry Potter. The Elephant That Must Not Be Named. If you say it out loud, someone will arrive at your door and brand the four scarlet letters on your forehead ‘TERF’. I guarantee it. Even I avoided saying the word in my original article, Inauthentic Selves, which had a section on autogynephilia end up on the cutting room floor, because I wanted the broader LGBT community to be able to read about the way that LGBT activism has been austroturfed.

But I bet you’re thinking ‘I’ve never heard of these autoawhataphias’.

Are you a member of the LGBT community? If you are, surely you know a male to female transitioner. They are in their late thirties to their early fifties, they call themselves a ‘lesbian’, and they wear clothing that’s inappropriate for their age. They’re ex-cop, military, or most often, work in something involving computers.

I can see your head nodding behind the screen. Congratulations, you’ve seen autogynephilia.

But what is autogynephilia? What is the elephant? How is it relevant to the LGBT community? And why is no one pointing it out?" (continues)
medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

Amy Dyess article, “TERF Is Hate Speech and It’s Time to Condemn It”
Oct 25, 2018

"For the most part, mainstream media and so-called LGBT organizations have chosen to ignore a specific demographic of the Me Too movement. “TERF” is a slur used to sexually harass, threaten, and silence lesbians. Instead of standing up for female homosexuals, “LGBT” orgs and media are persecuting lesbians and disguising it as social justice. The gaslighting is next level, but the majority of the world is starting to wake up to this injustice. Time’s Up!

TERF was initially used as an acronym that meant Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, but the term has always been used to muzzle women from discussing our rights. For the past year and half, TERF has been widely used as homophobic hate speech aimed at all lesbians. That’s right… ALL lesbians.

You don’t have to be a radical feminist to be labeled a TERF. A lesbian can make it clear she believes trans people deserve human rights and respect, but she’s still a “TERF” because her sexual orientation has an innate boundary. That boundary is same-sex attraction for other adult human females. Lesbians are the only sexual orientation that excludes penis, and that makes us the most dangerous adversary to the patriarchy.

Extremists don’t believe women, chiefly lesbians, deserve boundaries. That’s what this issue is all about. They disguise their misogyny and homophobia as social justice in order to gain support from people who are misinformed. So-called “progressives” are openly oppressing and condemning the homosexual community, primarily the lesbian community,

The Economist has banned the use of “TERF” in articles and comments because the slur “may have started as a descriptive term but is now used to try to silence a vast swathe of opinions on trans issues, and sometimes to incite violence against women.” Unfortunately, too many journalists and sites have decided to do the opposite. Even editors are doubling down on their misogyny and homophobia." (continues)

Being a trans ally doesn’t mean you have to tolerate or promote homophobia. Being a homosexual isn’t anti-trans. It’s unreasonable to expect lesbians to be pansexual. Sexual orientation is sex-based for homosexuals, bisexuals, and heterosexuals. Extremists can’t handle that words have meaning. Boundaries aren’t being respected." (continue)
medium.com/@amydyess83/terf-is-hate-speech-and-its-time-to-condemn-it-6efc897ce407

I think What you all see as ‘demanding’, to some trans people is just ‘existing’
If a lesbian asks to be known as a woman, and everyone is constantly saying to her ‘nope, man created man and woman to be together. The definition of marriage is man and woman. You will marry a man. You must be with a man to make babies, this is biological fact’ is her insistence that actually she’s a lesbian, demanding you forget all you know about biology or just asking for acceptance as to who she is?
Yes I know trans people obviously is more complicated as in order to be truly accepted it requires accessing spaces for their preferred sex, and those biologically that sex may not like this. But I think a bit more understanding on both sides would go a long way to finding a solution.

Some of the TRA have gone way to far in defending their position, but equally I think GC people are not innocent.