I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

The problem is early, that you want transgenderism to be elevated onto a plane. You don't like it when it is categorised as what it is. Delusion, gender dysphoria, or a fetish.

You want it to be something else.

Categorising is too pragmatic, or basic.

Categorising it as what it is, means people can talk about it, refute it, and analyse it.

You don't like that. Because it's an ideology, to you. It's more than the sum of its parts.

The link for the NHS is nonsense. They start by saying sex is assigned at birth. They have drunk the trans-lobby Kool-Aid. You know sex is not assigned at birth! You know that.

There is zero scientific consensus about hormones in the womb.

Early, I know this is difficult for you, clearly. But you can't just ignore all the evidence that shows how transgenderism is harmful, mostly to women.

The very idea that you need to change sex because of your preferences, or the way you think, is antithetical to feminism and women's rights. (And all available evidence).

You can't just ignore that many men now identifying as women have a fetish. What do you want women to say about that? Everyone understands the distinction between gender dysphoria and a fetish. But there's fuck all that can be done about that in terms of access.

Partly because you can't tell one from the other, but also because deciding that one is wholly unacceptable, doesn't mean that the other suddenly is acceptable.

And quibbling over whether gender dysphoria is a mental health condition, or a medical condition cuts to the heart of it. Making out it's a medical condition is assuming it has a medical basis. When there is no evidence to suggest it does.

Hey, if it does, brilliant. We can try to cure it.

It was a mental health condition, transvestism still is. The trans lobby campaigned to have it reduced to a medical condition, and soon it will be a lifestyle choice.

You're looking at a fetish being designated a lifestyle choice that gets access to women and girls. Because you can bet your life, it's not the men who are suffering from gender dysphoria who are pushing this.

Lesbians are demanding that you deny reality. Lesbianism is same-sex attraction. The proof of the pudding, and all that. I don't know why people conflate the two.

Humans can't change sex.

*arent demanding.

But I think a bit more understanding on both sides would go a long way to finding a solution.

Why do you think sex segregation is wanted and needed? Why do you think those needs disappear when someone is trans?

I think What you all see as ‘demanding’, to some trans people is just ‘existing’
If a lesbian asks to be known as a woman, and everyone is constantly saying to her ‘nope, man created man and woman to be together. The definition of marriage is man and woman. You will marry a man. You must be with a man to make babies, this is biological fact’

Its innacurate and disingenous to suggest that 'we all' have a particular view and really offensive to imply that they also have homophobic beliefs.
Many of those standing up for women's rights and safeguarding now also fought for gay rights including same sex marriage.

I linked you the NHS page which provides an answer? That GD is not classed as a MH condition and various causes such as hormone imbalances in a pregnant mother affecting the fetus. There’s not a lot of research on it, but many people see it as similar to a ‘birth defect’

I haven't seen any reputable research which indicates causes like this for gender dysphoria. If you know of any, maybe you could link to them.

I am also puzzled as to why something which is all in someone's mind, and causes them distress should be described so emphatically as "not a mental health condition". It surprises me that the NHS should be saying this.

If you find my post offensive Early you're absolutely free to report it to MNHQ.

One of the big differences between a lesbian and a transwoman is that the lesbian is asking that society accept her for what she is - a woman who is attracted to other women. Transwomen are demanding that society accept them as something they are not - men do not become women just because they say they are. People can't change sex, Early, and no amount of wishful thinking can change that.

You might find this interesting - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10843193/

Obviously unless you are transgender yourself, it is impossible to know why and how they feel the way they do. I don’t believe humans can change sex, but I don’t believe it’s a choice.

I used to struggle with the same things it appears Early is struggling with, having had trans friends.
But harsh as it might sound, it's not my battle to ensure they have what they need at the expense of someone else.
Because that's what it comes down to. If you give a group what they want at the expense of another group we end up with this idea of a hierarchy of special interest groups, where trans are (currently) top of the pile.
Is it really about somewhere safe to pee, or is that just to tug on the heartstrings of women everywhere? Is it about validation at the end of a long "struggle"? Is it about forcing others to partake in a sexual fetish? Is there any way to even know?
The person who shall not be named, in Canada, takes selfies in toilet mirrors with children in the background. Asks publicly about helping insert a tampon in a 10 year old. Women are so socialised to be "nice" that they politely talk that person down from that person's sexual euphoria when that person asks these perverted questions online.
Do you think you could challenge that person in a changing room, hospital ward or public toilet? Knowing what the likely reaction will be? That person doesn't appear to be violent, but are you happy to be taken to court by that person, who believes the law is on that person's side?
I think of trans people I have known over the years and none of them are AGP men, fetishists or abusers. (AFAIK) But Stonewall have thrown them all under the bus, the current focus is on straight men with AGP.
There will be a sizeable backlash at some point, I fully expect to be in the firing line as a homosexual who doesn't conform to feminine gender standards. Ironically the backlash will be sparked by straight men with AGP.

Just to clarify r.e the link I’ve posted, the hormone Somatostatin is linked to aggressive behaviour.

Telegraph front page today: 'NHS trans row as men get access to women's wards if they identify as female'
(extract)
"Hospitals routinely allow male patients to share female wards if they self-identify as women, an investigation by The Telegraph has found.

Despite official guidance intended to eliminate mixed sex wards, none of the NHS trusts in England require a patient to have begun transition for them to be treated as their preferred sex, according to responses to more than 100 Freedom of Information requests.

One trust even advises staff to consult with the transgender patient if a female victim of sexual assault objects to sharing facilities with someone who may be biologically and legally male.

The NHS is unable to track how many transgender people are accommodated on wards for the opposite sex because data systems record them as their “preferred” sex.

The Department of Health’s “elimination of mixed sex wards” guidance upon which individual trusts must base their policies says that “men and women should not have to share sleeping accommodation or toilet/bathroom facilities”. But the document adds, “except where it is in the overall best interests of the patient or reflects their patient choice”.

As a result, a physically intact male has the right to choose to be treated on a ward for women that is simultaneously declared to be single sex. (continues)

The Telegraph has been contacted by a nurse at a city hospital with a report of a patient identifying as a transgender woman who appeared to become sexually aroused on a female ward, causing distress to a group of elderly patients.

The incident raises concerns about the lack of “equality impact assessments” (EIAs) that should be undertaken by law to determine the effect on all groups that may be affected by transgender policy changes. EIAs seen by The Telegraph appear to have taken into account the impact only on transgender patients rather than on others who should also be considered because of their sex, age or religion." (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/10/nhs-trans-row-men-get-access-womens-wards-identify-female/

Some people are very invested in removing sex segregated spaces. I think it might be a good use of time to investigate their reasons.

What I find interesting is that trans people have been using toilets of their preferred sex for a long time, relatively unnoticed or commented upon. Obviously now there is a larger number talking about it, so people are against it more openly now. Weather this is down to more people coming out due to a more accepting society or just greater social media presence etc making it easier for us to see them or if it’s down to people jumping on the bandwagon, perhaps with a sexual motivation - I don’t think you can be 100% sure.
Does no one think that an important factor would be to work on differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria? More attention on behalf of medical professionals to differentiate?
Or would you not support this in favour of a flat out ‘nope’ on all transgender people?

What I find interesting is that trans people have been using toilets of their preferred sex for a long time, relatively unnoticed or commented upon.

No, they haven't.

It’s very interesting actually. The story of the transwoman getting beaten up by woman, ignored. If I’d ignored a story the other way around, I know from experience you’d all have jumped on me.
Scientific papers about brain differences, ignored.
Why are people so intent on avoiding any discussion that doesn’t directly support their viewpoint?
I’ve always been interested to hear and discuss opposing views, and actually share the same views as a lot of you on the basics (e.g self ID and sport), it’s a shame so many of you simply block your ears and shout handmaid than maybe consider other views/evidence/studies that may offer a different perspective and may be beneficial to discussion.

TBH I'm sceptical that even the most benign trans person has not considered toilet choice as something important.

I can see how a transwoman has not appreciated the impact that they might have on other users of the Ladies. They know that they are not themselves a threat, they haven't been asked to leave or received any abuse for being in there, therefore they assume that women are consenting to share the space. It's only when women point out that it doesn't work like that - that we may tolerate them, we may be too scared or embarrassed to say anything, we may have altered our behaviour to avoid them. (And we almost certainly did notice them, given how few transwomen pass in the flesh)

But even leaving aside the significant noise about various "Bathroom Bills" - which surely would cross the radar of the average trans person - choosing which door to go through must be one of the first public declarations that "I want to be / treated as a woman" (or a man). And one of the few single sex spaces that we encounter every day. If we go out for a meal, the cinema then the pub as a group, it's literally only the toilets where we would separate into men and women.

Earlywalker
I've seen 2 news reports of trans women assaulted by women in toilets, both cases were from the USA. The most recent report does not mention the person was beaten up. You seem to have added that detail.

You have yet to explain how women can let 'true' trans people in and keep men or 'fake' trans people out. You have yet to explain what in your opinion makes a trans person fake. Or why your opinion should or will override the law.

Does no one think that an important factor would be to work on differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria? More attention on behalf of medical professionals to differentiate?

Yes, but while people are insisting that being transgender is not a medical condition or a mental health issue, this isn't going to happen, is it?

It’s very interesting actually. The story of the transwoman getting beaten up by woman, ignored. If I’d ignored a story the other way around, I know from experience you’d all have jumped on me

Its an alleged assault in America.
It hasn't been ignored.

Please stop making these generalised untrue accusations.
How would we 'all have jumped on' you?

Interesting to see you ou have though skipped over the Telegraph NHS article about the ignored impact on older women and those who have been sexually assaulted.

Obviously unless you are transgender yourself, it is impossible to know why and how they feel the way they do.

Some people may feel they are not a man (or not a woman).
But Not Man Feeling ≠ woman (Not Woman Feeling ≠ man)

(that is the "does not equal" sign in case the formatting naffs up when I hit "post message")

What I find interesting is that trans people have been using toilets of their preferred sex for a long time, relatively unnoticed or commented upon.
This is an assumption, and I'm going to challenge it.
Women are socialised to be accepting, kind, thoughtful.
The general public assumes transwomen have had genital surgery.
Women will remove themselves from a situation rather than challenge. Sometimes even deciding never to go back to that place.
AGP men seem to exhibit narcissistic behaviours. As such they would be less likely than other men to notice discomfort in other people. So would you rely on their testimony to state they were "unnoticed"?
Prior to the expansion of the trans umbrella, there appeared to be a different split of HSTS/AGP. Now the former appears to be dwarfed by the latter, hence the assertions that medicalisation is unnecessary, non-binary is valid, etc. Plus of course the latter group are sexually attracted to women in many cases, and offend at the rates of other men, if not higher.
The most common paraphilia in sex offenders is cross dressing.

Scientific papers about brain differences, ignored.

Many threads on this; the scientific consensus is that there's more variation within each sex than between the sexes and physical structural differences do not confer to expressed behaviour due to variation of personality.

be to work on differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria? More attention on behalf of medical professionals to differentiate?

That ship has sailed. It sailed on the tide of this is not a mental health condition.