I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

Early

So you're happy to accommodate the feelings of men with a GRC, but not those without? How does that work with your everyone's feeling is valid philosophy?

You are only saying you should accommodate one group and not the other, because you think they have a more valid claim.

If it's not feelings, what is the claim?

Women only safe spaces are an illusion ladies they aren't magical places that men can't enter. And I have to ask are there any statistics to prove an increase in sexual assaults when trans women use women's facilities? Also let's not put our own feelings onto the girl that apologised, women apologise when they feel uncomfortable, as we have no idea how the girl in question felt and your opinions obviously are biased by your own feelings on the situation. Trans women have been using "our safe spaces" for years. I would also point out that men who want to rape and sexually assault women don't need to go out and self identify as female to get into our changing rooms to do it. They do it at parties, in bars, in our homes, on the walk home, on public transport, in stair wells and plenty of other spaces that should be safe.

I've decided that if the women's loos end up the refuge of anyone who wants to go in there, I'm going to start using the men's on the grounds that the weirdos and pervs have gone over to the women's, and the ordinary decent blokes (the sort that normally act as a brake on the worst male behaviours, either consciously or simply by being there) will still be in the men's so I will be safest in there. For a bit, at least

• to clarify, by "weirdos and pervs" I WAS NOT talking about trans people, I was talking about the type of people who get off on listening to women pee or rummaging through the used tampon bin

Thank you for responding to my post Early - I’m genuinely interested in your view.
I’m wondering how we normalise asking for a GRC and if, in practice, this would still mean individual women being responsible for challenging men in their spaces. Also if a GRC is based on self ID then it’s basically rendered meaningless as anyone could get one.

MumUnderTheMoon

If you're arguing for the dismantlement of sex segregation, you need to come up with the justification.

What's in it for women?

There are definitely statistics to show a significant increase in crime against women and girls in unisex facilities, which is what they become as soon as men can identify in there.

Do you leave your car and house unlocked when you leave them? The lock obviously won't stop anyone determined to break into them, so why bother with any precaution?

rowan read the paper, it was interesting, thank you for all of the information you’re sharing. I’ve read lots of different views on how single sex toilets came about, it appears no one has the exact answer. That paper was written by a very openly gender critical woman, correct?

datun I believe those without a GRC should have a unisex’s/disabled toilet they can use and not have to use the mens while they await their GRC. I think this is reasonable given a trans person intends to live as their gender for the rest of their lives, a 2 year wait is the only way to protect all parties.

humber I think the practice of asking for a GRC does rely on some level of trust. Presently, I don’t believe it’s actually even a criminal offence for any man to enter a woman’s toilet, it is just frowned upon as such. There is trust that people use the correct toilets, if someone is in doubt and wants to clarify then yes, I suppose it would be on them. A lot of transwoman do pass and have been using the facilities for decades, I don’t think they’ll be getting out their GRCs everytime they enter a toilet, unless of course new protections came in and they were questioned.
I don’t think it’s fair to turf these people out for the sake of a few chancers, and a GRC policy would protect most people.

MumUnderTheMoon Thats a red herring.
If there is someone who looks male in the womens bathroom and women cannot have them removed, it is a mixed sex space.
We have women only spaces to lower the risks for women, and for privacy and consent.

I’ve read lots of different views on how single sex toilets came about, it appears no one has the exact answer. That paper was written by a very openly gender critical woman, correct?

W. Burlette Carter is a Professor of Law at George Washington University - Law School.

The paper is published in Yale Law & Policy Review, Vol. 37, No. 1, 2018

As the abstract describes, the paper investigates previous assumptions.

This is academic research.

Unisex facilities aren't the issue though the original post was about the women's loos and so called "women's only safe spaces" aren't unisex are they

The OP is about a male's atitude and behaviour towards women and what should be a single sex space for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

The male's atitude to women is concerning.

Sex segregated toilets (not gender segregated) are considered vital for the safety of women and girls in conflict zones and refugee camps:

www.opendemocracy.net/5050/valerie-hudson/gender-lenses-and-refugee-assistance

But human rights law is international, if we dismantle sex based rights in the West because it is considered ‘progressive’ it will become impossible to sustain protections for women and girls elsewhere.

I appreciate the need to protect vulnerable males from societal violence (especially as the mother of an autistic son) but heaping that onto the to-do lists of women, who worldwide, own very little of the wealth and subsequently have very little of the political power, is frankly, ludicrous.

Earlywalker
Have you talked to any of your trans friends about whether they would want to use unisex/ third spaces? Because there are many trans people who insist that these are inappropriate.

Helen Belcher on Newsnight a couple of months ago was asked "Would you use a third space?" The reply was to the effect of "No, I am a woman, I should be allowed to use the women's toilets."

The demand from transwomen is that they are accepted as women for all purposes. They don't want to use a separate 'trans' space or unisex space.

So it boils down to whose rights should be given priority. Women's right to a space free of male-bodied people or transwomen's right to be validated as women.

It's not about safety for transwomen, it's about validation. If it was about safety, they'd accept the third/unisex space, and/or campaign against male violence against them.

I think to say it’s not about safety is naive. Unisex toilets would essentially ‘out’ someone as trans, so I do understand the viewpoint.
The trans people I do know seem pretty unaware of the whole debate tbh. Certainly my best friend who is a trans man had no idea who any of the ‘big’ TRA names were. He couldn’t understand the debate, to him he knows himself as a genuine trans man and his friends from the community as genuine trans people, so the question of sexual motives or being unsafe did baffle him a bit. I think genuine transsexual people are being shat all over, and stonewall is largely to blame.

I’m pretty sure if he came into your toilet, the woman in there would tell him to leave sharpish though.
I also think that for some people, yes the validation thing is a key point. But seeing my friends battle, I do partly understand why.
From his POV I understand It must have been incredibly hard to spend years binding your breasts, cutting your genitals, attempting suicide and hiding what you feel, to then come out and lose everyone including your family over who you are. Once you’ve gone through all of that and have had surgery or similar, to then be told to hop on back to where you came from cus you ain’t one of us, it must stick the knife in. I understand why some woman are against it, but I also understand why what you see as ‘validation’ can be so important to them. You never know what battles someone has faced to feel they desperately need that validation.

I’m pretty sure if he came into your toilet, the woman in there would tell him to leave sharpish though

This is often claimed by TRAs, ususally with a photograph of Buck Angel. I'm not convinced its completely true.
There was a recent report about atitudes of other prisoners towards people who were transgender, it described how transmen in female estate prisons were accepted.

Sorry I don't have it to hand.

Just as you never know what battles someone has faced to feel they desperately need sex segregated spaces. And those people have the receipts in form of sexual violence stats.

Does a male's desperate need for validation mean that all women should lose the right to single sex provision? What is your solution for the women with faiths, cultural requirements and other specific needs who will be excluded from women's provisions if a male bodied person enters them? And won't have another (possibly two others if gender neutral is also available) option to go to if they want to pee?

How can women be expected to predict which male person will be ok with being questioned and which will behave like this?

archive.is/1Wu9k

Hagan was convicted in July of punching a fellow bar patron in the mouth. The victim, 40-year-old Cheryl Partsch, lost five teeth and could end up paying as much as $60,000 in medical bills.

Hagan was accused of battering Partsch because she questioned his presence in the women's restroom.

We are not wrong to be concerned that some of the most vocal proponents of mixed-sex loos and changing rooms turn out to be rapists and abusers:

womenarehuman.com/transgender-proponent-of-mixed-sex-showers-locker-rooms-raped-deaf-woman-johanna-wolf/

Unisex toilets would essentially ‘out’ someone as trans, so I do understand the viewpoint.

How would they out anyone? They're unisex. Anyone can use them. Women, men, transmen, transwomen.

womenarehuman.com/male-trans-rights-activist-who-identifies-as-woman-rapes-woman-cherno-biko/

Perhaps because the inmates know they are transmen? If my friend, who is tall, muscley with tattoos, a deep voice and facial hair came in, I’m not sure the woman would accept him.

I never said their battles meant they should have access to woman’s facilities, I answered a question regarding them just looking for ‘validation’.

Trust me when I say I have had more than my fair share of abuse from men, I know they can be absolute assholes. By me offering a perspective that is different to the norm on transgender issues, does not mean I’m against woman and believe all men/trans people are saints.

womenarehuman.com/male-cross-dresser-records-women-in-restrooms-jason-pomare/