Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

Because i said you were being petty and sh*t? Wow MN, well done.

Male interlopers are getting pretty dull now. It's like a game to them to come onto FWR and rile up women whilst complaining how we don't centre men, are mean, have a hive mind, why can't we just be nice damn it and blah blah blah ad nauseum. Feminism and women's rights. Clues in the name. Do women frequent men's boards or internet spaces? Genuine question as it would never occur to me to do so.
I personally refuse to engage with twatdom as my exH would only be too happy to explain. He still tries though, bless him.

Who is petty and shit?

I feel ive missed something

AfterEllen article, 'Girl Dick, the Cotton Ceiling and the Cultural War on Lesbians, Girls and Women'
By Miranda Yardley
(extract)
"It’s a measure of how completely topsy-turvy the transgender debate has made LGB&T politics and organizations that the person writing this piece is a transsexual. I am, however, uniquely placed to be able to write this piece as I am a man who ‘lives as a woman,’ whatever that may mean, and can see exactly how too many transgender rights activists think. And as anyone who has ever participated in social media knows, any criticism of transgender ideology, which we all of us have the right to accept, critique and reject, any deviation from the brain-sucking mantra of ‘trans women are women,’ is met with reports to our employers, threats of physical violence, and threats of rape and death. This is a viciously toxic form of men’s sexual rights activism that has managed to rebrand and reframe itself as a civil rights movement.

The framing of any discussion or debate is all important, and political language is often used to reframe threats as harmless, or to sell us ideas we’d never ordinarily entertain. Sometimes though the only way to drill down and actually understand something is to walk away from any subjective post-structuralist pretensions and abandon the soft lighting of the political language we have been carefully taught, reverting to good old fashioned precise and factual descriptions: thus all pronouns and reference to sex within my writing shall be implied from real life actual biological sex, and biological males will be referred to as such, even when they LARP 24/7 as a man’s idea of what it is to be a woman.

We cannot talk sensibly about sexuality and sexual orientation unless we are able to correctly identify sex, and being consistent on sex will also allow me to distance myself from the transgenderist reframing of the inherently exclusionary nature of sexual orientation as acts of bigotry and hate, because it is not: we are allowed to define our personal, intimate and sexual boundaries and decline sexual and romantic relationships without having to justify these

The homophobic, anti-lesbian idea which had wedged itself into the heart of transgender ideology does, of course, have a name: The Cotton Ceiling. The cotton ceiling is defined by Wikipedia as “…the difficulty trans people experience when seeking lesbian and gay relationships, and in lesbian and gay social spaces more generally.” This needs to be carefully deconstructed, in particular, the basis of the perceived exclusion is extremely important: attempts to reframe exclusion as ‘transphobic hate’ based on the exclusion being ‘because they are trans’ is the most common argument, however the true motivation is revealed starkly by Julia Serano, writing in 2014 in The Daily Beast ‘The Struggle to Find Trans Love in San Francisco,’ which is a masterpiece in the sleight of hand that has made it impossible to talk about our sexual orientation in terms of biological sex without being labelled a bigot or worse: the piece is even subtitled “for one trans woman, finding a date within San Francisco’s lesbian community turned out to be much harder than she anticipated” which, by redefining Serano as a woman, immediately demonized those darn evil lesbians and makes h* out to be an innocent victim of unfair negative discrimination. What Serano does is reframe h difficulty in finding a female homosexual to have sex with him as symptomatic of systematic, structural oppression. Here, *, the biological male in search of a sexual relationship with a homosexual, biological female, is bizarrely reframed as the victim: (continues)

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567823-girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women

**redacted in light of MN rules re pronouns

Sigh. Can I go back to passports for a moment? I was struck a while ago at how quickly Steph was able to get a GRC -through an overseas route was'nt it? Was it subject to a different level of scrutiny?

So can passports also be used as a self ID from overseas? I am entitled by birth to apply for another passport. I could get this with a marker of another sex. I dont think many people would challenge it in the UK. So therefore I could gain entry to any single sex spaces with it as I could say I dont have a UK GRC as I am from another country.

It doesnt feel very satisfactory at all.

Mumfun It also offers the opportunity for a loophole in security measures with regards international travel.
There is a fairly imminent bill in New Zealand and Tasmania (I think) which could also allow for passports to have an X instead of F or M which may set a precedent.

Mumfun Changing the sex marker in passports is a big deal, I agree. As you said earlier, it effectively makes self-ID international law, and that raises a HUGE range of questions.

Sorry Adam. My posts were intended to reply to Debbie, who was one of a number of interesting women I met last week.

I found Debbie easy to talk to. I am a natural mathematician and usually find it easy to talk to right brained people - regardless of sex/gender. (DH in contrast is academic but not practical, despite his combined science GCSE, and struggles to talk to, say, builders.)

Debbie posted some interesting, and perhaps evolving, thoughts on her colleagues 'permission' to use their space. I have replied explaining how I saw my boundaries. I have no problem Debbie coming back challenging my contribution.

My contribution was made in good faith and I am disappointed that you have written it off as 'getting at Debbie' and part of some hive mind collective.

Writing off my contribution and those of others gets us nowhere. If I somehow overstepped a line I would accept Debbie telling me so. But I am not sure where you coming from. Am I simply wrong simply because you disagree with me? If so, why? I feel I deserve a voice, both for me and my diabled mother. And am cross at being shut down by people who feel they have more entitlement.

Its an interesting thought mum

Not interesting in a good way

Oh shit that sounds rude

Hopefully you know what i mean

Adam weren't you the poster who called women "cis" on the Scottish AIBU thread, and claimed to be new to the debate?

Just checked. That was "Adam nichol".

This thread took a funny turn didn't it?

I will tell you one person who I have never seen berate women for "unkind" opinions or speaking their minds when it is not in lockstep with theirs: Debbie Hayton.

Let's hope Adam is taking some time to reflect.

It certainly did take a funny turn. It isn't and shouldn't be about me. I am not sure of Adam's motives but I am quite capable of looking after myself. I do not disappear from existence when someone says "you're a man, Hayton!" I am here to say what I think and listen to others - including those who disagree with me. Hopefully to learn things as well.

Am I right about 'right brained' sciency people regardless of sex/gender. Im not sure I would have much to say to our Lils, or Shon or whoever. Though as a mum of a 20 year old I would want to feed Lils and counsel Aimee. They seem lost.

Back to passports- mine does say F. I consider it to be a descriptive marker rather than a prescriptive marker. My legal sex is determined by my birth certificate that does say M.

Our BMD system in this country seems to rely heavily on people staying around the same place, registering marriage, and keeping the same name(except within conventions for marriage) and staying the same sex they were born as and being born to the parents that are their parents. There are lots of exceptions for small numbers of people. The small numbers are now becoming more the norm - not sure how this will pan out.

Back to passports- mine does say F. I consider it to be a descriptive marker rather than a prescriptive marker. My legal sex is determined by my birth certificate that does say M

It does say sex though (not gender / gender identity) and F refers to female.

You've always been very clear that humans can't change sex as well as being open about not having a GRC.

So I'm a bit confused what 'descriptive marker' means in the context of the passport.

I am here to say what I think and listen to others - including those who disagree with me. Hopefully to learn things as well

A quote to live by debbie

I am here to say what I think and listen to others - including those who disagree with me. Hopefully to learn things as well

So important this ^^

I'm just catching up since breakfast time due to the O2 data breakdown all day ... and blimey!!

It had me in mind of the Julia Hartley Brewer 'don't call me cis' clip last week when the fella kept not hearing her say 'no' and kept ducking back and trying to get her to back down

Here's the 'nice young' Nick Duffy with a typical Pink News article:

'Father Ted writer Graham Linehan compares trans activism to Nazism'
Nick Duffy 11th December 2018, 3:08 PM

ather Ted and The IT Crowd writer Graham Linehan is under fire after likening transgender activists to Nazis.

The TV writer made the comments in an interview with internet radio show Derrick Jensen Resistance Radio.

Linehan, who has come under fire for his outspoken views on trans issues on Twitter, said that he would not stop talking about the issue.

Speaking on the radio show, Linehan: “People do get very nervous… it’s like putting your hand on a flamethrower. The opposition is so extreme and so frightening that eventually everyone is asking you to stop.

“My feeling is I can’t, because it’s too important. It’s too important to the women in my life and it’s too important to me.

“I’m now in a position where I can now answer the question honestly of, if you were around the time of something terrible happening like Nazism, would you be one of the people who said, ‘This is wrong,’ despite being opposed?

“I feel happy in myself that I’ve been one of the people saying up and saying, ‘No, this is wrong,’ despite everyone telling me not to do it.”

The writer continued: “When things are wrong, you should be allowed to point out that they’re wrong.

LGBT+ people on Twitter slammed Linehan over the interview, with one writing: “It sounds like you’re comparing trans people to nazis, and we both know that would be f**king absurd.”

Dr Adrian Harrop wrote: “Making a comparison between the actions or members of any group and those of the Nazi Party is, at the very least, a controversial tactic. But to make such comparisons in relation to a group of people who were themselves victims of Nazi genocide is simply indefensible and wrong.”

In a statement to PinkNews about his comments, Linehan said: “When a magazine purportedly for gay people, collaborates in homosexual erasure by indulging the straight fantasy that men can be lesbians, something has gone deeply wrong.

“As I said in the interview, I’m proud to be on the side of the many gay, trans and female people who are fighting against this latest onslaught by the patriarchy.”

Linehan was given a warning by police in October after a harassment complaint from a transgender activist.

The writer was warned to stop contacting transgender woman Stephanie Hayden, who he had deadnamed and referred to using male pronouns."

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/11/father-ted-graham-linehan-trans-nazis/

Glinner's 45 mins interview with Derrick Jensen is here:

At least it’s plain what calling the police is all about.

Make a bogus complaint so they have to investigate and then you can reference the investigation every time you refer to the person you complained about.

Doesn’t matter if the complaint was total bullshit.

Isn’t wasting police time an offence?