Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

You know it isn't all about you?

There are others like me reading this thread who appreciate the links to other threads and articles, otherwise things go round in circles.

I know Rowantrees. Because i listened to it. hmm

AdamBede Not sure if you're aware or not (don't wish to presume) but please don't feel you have to engage with any links I post. They're just potentially relevant.

Some people find them of interest, many skip over them.

I'm pretty consistant in how I post here.

Trans people have been using women's spaces for decades, with a mutual respect and agreement, which is exactly what Debbie and others are trying to do.

I'm nearly 50 and have never been asked or agreed to share my space with male transpeople. A few occasionally using the loo, desperate not to be outed, is not the same as demanding to use open plan changing rooms and hospital wards.

How can it be mutual respect when we can't say no.

It goes around in circles when someone who disagrees is told off and then told surely they don't disagree that other should disagree. You are so bloody defensive.

This is ridiculous. Debate me instead of insulting. Of course me standing up for my opinion doesn't mean I don't think you shouldn't disagree. FGS.

I was aware of Debbie on Twitter quite a bit before she joined MN. I was involved in the Jonny Best thread [which seemed a bit more polite and reasonable than this one].

It is either about self ID or it isn't. If it is about Self ID then I don't see any point [except for justifying Twitter's opinion that MN's hive mind erases trans people] in repeatedly asking Debbie, who is an empathetic transwoman who is engaged in the debate [which seems rarer than hen's teeth right now] not to use the bathroom she has used for many years as part of her life as a TW.

Rowantrees, sorry, are you actually trying to say I didn't listen, at the time, to the Woman's Hour interview between Bex Stimpson [pre-recorded] and Helen Lewis? This is utterly, utterly baffling.

Thanks Melamin for the constructive post - good to pile on isn't it when the going is strong! It isn't about you either!

And I think you are shooting yourself in the foot if what you actually want is all trans people to use the bathrooms of their birth sex.

No one has actually said that. It's not what I want. Stop making assumptions.

But your view is noted. Forgive me if I'm not that bothered what you personally think about me or my views, real or assumed.

And I'm sure you'll remember RowanTrees, that Helen Lewis expressed the bafflement that Bex wouldn't debate her live, seeing as she actually does believe TW are W - as I do, but that a difficult, uncomfortable debate is still necessary for Self ID. It is necessary here too.

It is either about self ID or it isn't.

Clearly its about many things: women's rights, safeguarding, free speech, parliamentary process, role of lobbying groups, different perspectives within the transgender communities, control of social media platforms, gender stereotypes, access to heathcare, data, education, law, tackling male violence, homophobia, sexuality etc etc

You are being utterly disingenuous and buoyed by your collective sense of unity [and anonymity] if you think, Ereshkigal, your group etiquette towards my posts have not been seriously off.

It is either about self ID or it isn't

No it isn't. You really are terribly self important.

your group etiquette towards my posts have not been seriously off.

You barged in and scolded everyone. What sort of etiquette is that?

Rowantrees, sorry, are you actually trying to say I didn't listen, at the time, to the Woman's Hour interview between Bex Stimpson [pre-recorded] and Helen Lewis? This is utterly, utterly baffling.

No I didn't say that, try to say that or imply that.

about not recognising trans identities

If you mean I don't believe there is such a thing as a gender identity, you'd be quite right. I don't.

Neither does Debbie.

You are being utterly disingenuous and buoyed by your collective sense of unity [and anonymity]

Says the anonymous, name changing poster.

collective sense of unity [and anonymity]

You are the one with no posting history.

Really, so disagreeing with 'everyone' and joining late in a thread is 'barging in and scolding everyone.'
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Yep - there was some slow discussion of awkward issues and exploring the details and consequences and it was interesting.

Good to know how name changers who disagree with you are treated nowadays. How long have you been on here Melamin?

I've been on here, yes, in various guises, for over a decade thanks.

or 5 minutes? who knows.

And I'm sure you'll remember RowanTrees, that Helen Lewis expressed the bafflement that Bex wouldn't debate her live, seeing as she actually does believe TW are W - as I do, but that a difficult, uncomfortable debate is still necessary for Self ID. It is necessary here too.

Indeed I do.
Bex Stinson is a senior employee at Stonewall, an influential charity in receipt of significant amounts of public money.
Charities and lobbyists who enjoy considerable access to politicians, policy makers etc must be open to scrutiny regardless of the sector or their gender identity.

People who wish to post here are required to engage in civilised discussion within the rules of the board.

There's a significant difference between the two situations.

It is either about self ID or it isn't.

Don't be ridiculous. You don't get to frame the debate. It can be just about self-ID for some and about more than that for others. Why not just state your own position rather than arriving on a thread complete with name change just to bitch at the effrontery of the women who don't agree with you?

I'm starting to doubt that you're posting in good faith, actually. Either that or you have not one iota of self awareness that when you came in you told us off like a bunch of naughty school kids. And people quite reasonably objected to being told what to do or what feelings and views were acceptable.

By a self important random person who had name changed but expects us to magically know their level of involvement in GC debate.

Spoiler: I don't care.

Debbie acknowledges her birth sex, and acknowledges that for her, living as a woman brought her peace of mind better than anything else could.

Seems to clarify anyway that Self ID is a red herring and not your concern.