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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

189 replies

HairyPotter · 01/12/2018 23:36

So she’s 20 and one of the societies she is a member of also has a trans woman as a member. Although it is affiliated with her university, it is open to anyone with an interest and this person is in their 40’s.

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies to find this person already there. A moment or two later another trans woman came into the loo looking for the first one.

They didn’t do anything but dd felt really uneasy and vulnerable with two male bodied people in her female space. She feels unable to say anything as when she took some woman’s place flyers into uni, someone posted them all over twitter demanding to know ‘what shitty fucking terf’ put these up in ‘her’ uni!

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there? Sad She says she can’t tell anyone how uncomfortable she feels for fear of being attacked.

OP posts:
Materialist · 05/12/2018 05:29

This reply has been deleted

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DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 05/12/2018 07:05

Nicely argued, Materialist.

thehorseandhisboy · 05/12/2018 10:15

Yes. I find the implicit condoning of transphobic attitudes and behaviour from men as a sex class extraordinary tbh.

It's never suggested that it's men who need to change their attitudes and behaviour towards non-gender stereotype conforming men.

It's actively permitting their collective transphobia.

Materialist · 05/12/2018 17:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

misscockerspaniel · 05/12/2018 19:07

Women do not have to justify why they don't want males in female-only spaces. If we don't want transwomxyn in loos, changing rooms, women's refuges, women's sport etc etc then they shouldn't be there. End of story.

MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 19:26

Holstenlane
"I always think the bathroom thing is a bad way to highlight it. Make attendants clean the bathrooms just as much as female. The cubicle you're using is isolated and lockable. It's really a difficult one to argue. "

By that logic, transwomen should also not be uncomfortable in the men's loo...

Always the same. Every TRA ever brings up this argument: "it's just a bathroom" -> well, if it is, why are TW making such a fuss about not wanting to be in the men's.

"Dressed as a man"

So so so, looks like they know when male privilege will be beneficial.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 20:00

I'm not convinced by self ID, but there does seem to be a curious tendency on here to conflate the problematic TRA collective with the other transwomen who just want to go about their business without drama.

I'm not saying they should necessarily get unbridled access to women's spaces, but it's really disturbing to imagine a transwoman who perceives herself to be female, makes every effort to fit in and cause no trouble to the women around her, being photographed/exposed online, bullied by women who outnumber her, and physically intimidated by burly men. That's pretty reprehensible no matter where you stand.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 20:07

And the argument always seems to be framed as men and trans people not respecting women's boundaries, but there's never a mention of the many women who seem be trans friendly.

In the recent debate was it not the female participants who were most vocal about the TWAW argument etc?

Materialist · 05/12/2018 20:24

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Alltheprettyseahorses · 05/12/2018 20:25

If a woman is happy to use public toilets and changing rooms alongside men, she is free to go into the men's facilities*. What she is not entitled to do is invite men into women's facilities. You have all been told NO. That is enough.

*I say free, but evidence shows the men involved would, quite rightly, vociferously object

Materialist · 05/12/2018 20:26

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MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 20:27

Mr. "Why should I be a feminist"

I see you are on here to troll trans threads.

Materialist · 05/12/2018 20:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CrazyToast · 05/12/2018 21:23

Firstly, those who feel they would have no issue with this, that is fine. But the next step should not be to dismiss those who do. People are different.

OP I would recommend she make an anonymous complaint, so it is recorded but with no repercussion to her. It doesnt help on the ground but she should say something anonymously. Otherwise how will we know it was an issue.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:54

You have all been told NO. That is enough.

It's not enough unless you can conclusively demonstrate that it's the majority of women who feel this way.

Some studies have found a majority against, but there could arguably be a bias as many people are unaware of the issue and hence wouldn't have voted.

Politics and social media on the other hand seem to be quite pro trans with the insta banning of anything deemed 'transphobic' so the consensus amongst women isn't yet particularly clear.

MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 22:01

"It's not enough unless you can conclusively demonstrate that it's the majority of women who feel this way."

So if it is a minority, say 40% of women, then these 40% of women should lose their voice?

Only for maybe 0.25% of males getting theirs?

Yes, you sure are for "equality".

Hyppolyta · 05/12/2018 22:01

Why do some women being ok with unisex spaces mean all women should have unisex spaces?

Why not just have an additional unisex space?

Hyppolyta · 05/12/2018 22:02

Why do some women being ok with unisex spaces mean all women should have unisex spaces?

Why not just have an additional unisex space?

EchoCardioGran · 05/12/2018 22:06

Cheggers does like to invent studies. Never posts links to them though.

Flooffloof · 05/12/2018 22:19

I'm not saying they should necessarily get unbridled access to women's spaces, but it's really disturbing to imagine a transwoman who perceives herself to be female, makes every effort to fit in and cause no trouble to the women around her, being photographed/exposed online, bullied by women who outnumber
her, and physically intimidated by burly men. That's pretty reprehensible no matter where you stand

How do I as a woman tell the difference between trying so hard to make the effort, and just a man out to leer?
As for bullied, oh please women, be nice. And who is bullying.
We would probably remove ourself from the space before bullying a man. That could get us killed.
So if the women are such bullies maybe they should use the men's.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 22:29

So if the women are such bullies maybe they should use the men's.

Yeah. Men are nice and lovely and wouldn't hurt a fly, we are repeatedly told when we don't want them in our spaces.

OldCrone · 05/12/2018 23:56

You have all been told NO. That is enough.

It's not enough unless you can conclusively demonstrate that it's the majority of women who feel this way.

This isn't how changes are usually made. It's up to the people who want to change conventions to demonstrate that the changes are an improvement on the current arrangements. It's not usual to make the changes and then try to force the people who were happy with the way things were to prove that the changes are detrimental.

We have single sex spaces. If you want some men or all men to be able to use them you have to demonstrate that that would be better for everyone. Including women. Because we are actually people, too.

ScottCheggJnr · 06/12/2018 07:49

How do I as a woman tell the difference between trying so hard to make the effort, and just a man out to leer?

Well, I'd be surprised if many men went through gender reassignment surgery just to have a quick perve.

SecondRow · 06/12/2018 08:26

That's right, not many do. So when I'm startled by a recognisably male person next to me at the sinks, the probability is much higher that they have an intact male body than not. That's exactly what most women are not ok with.

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/12/2018 08:42

I'm not saying they should necessarily get unbridled access to women's spaces, but it's really disturbing to imagine a transwoman who perceives herself to be female, makes every effort to fit in and cause no trouble to the women around her, being photographed/exposed online, bullied by women who outnumber
her, and physically intimidated by burly men. That's pretty reprehensible no matter where you stand

Two points. 1. Bullying? Women asserting a boundary and saying no is not bullying. where is the bullying you see here? What is the reprehensible behaviour?

  1. If it’s burly men that are the issue then this is a Male violence problem. Take it to the men.

We say no. And that’s that.

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