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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

189 replies

HairyPotter · 01/12/2018 23:36

So she’s 20 and one of the societies she is a member of also has a trans woman as a member. Although it is affiliated with her university, it is open to anyone with an interest and this person is in their 40’s.

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies to find this person already there. A moment or two later another trans woman came into the loo looking for the first one.

They didn’t do anything but dd felt really uneasy and vulnerable with two male bodied people in her female space. She feels unable to say anything as when she took some woman’s place flyers into uni, someone posted them all over twitter demanding to know ‘what shitty fucking terf’ put these up in ‘her’ uni!

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there? Sad She says she can’t tell anyone how uncomfortable she feels for fear of being attacked.

OP posts:
NameChangeToAvoidBeingFound · 02/12/2018 00:37

I use the disabled toilets or at least single person toilets rather than communal bathrooms. I have nothing against trans people or their rights to be in those spaces if they are genuinely identifying as that gender, but I am not comfortable changing in their presence so I remove myself as much as I can. I've been sexually assaulted several times from the age of 8 and I can't put myself into a situation that leaves me vulnerable in that way.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 00:38

In her mind, it's a room with 2 guys in it. So? She wasn't changing infront of them?

Her feelings are valid, and mean something to her. But she wasn't changing infront of them.

I mean more to the side of saving women's spades than I do to the trans movement, but with arguments like this I just think "So?". You've got individual, lockable cubicles.

The only reason i'd fight it is that it opens the door to allowing them into changing rooms, nude spas, sleeping in the same room as female during club/school outings. It opens a door to the things which are actually a problem. But in itself, it's really not that bad.

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 00:38

A cubicle only really fits easily one person

If a man wants to rape you I think he's fairly likely to decide behind the closed door by the sinks is good enough

And while neither of them wanted to rape her or assault her

A young woman still has an inner alert that it is possible. There are no cameras. You won't necessarily be saved by another woman walking in

circleoflife · 02/12/2018 00:38

But why does it matter what they were wearing? As many argue on here, clothes/ appearance don't make you make or female. Just seems a weird thing to focus on.

HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 00:41

What's 'dressed as a man'? I'm probably dressed as a man right now.

You know what Hairy means.

This person obviously has no qualms about enjoying "their" male privilege while out and about, and does not at all feel uncomfortable being perceived as a man. Which means "they" could easily use the men's facilities without being uncomfortable or in danger there.

This person just chooses to make a 20 year old woman uncomfortable because "they" can.

Original poster
HairyPotter · 02/12/2018 00:43

I described what they were wearing to highlight that while they are living permanently as a woman (according to their own fb) there are also still very much male when they want to be. Which along with a keeness to volunteer with Brownies makes me uneasy and protective of my dd.

OP posts:
Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 00:46

I'd fight this from the perspective that it will lead to all women's spaces going... including those where privacy cannot be had by going into a cubicle because they are just single rooms. But I wouldn't argue against it by saying it "makes me uncomfortable" because the answer will always be "you have your own individual cubicle with a lockable door".

A man can rape a woman in any place he is alone with her. For that to be valid, you'd need to argue that they can never be alone with a woman in any space.

The actual problem is them being in spaces where we are changing, or naked, or sleeping etc and where we don't have a lockable door between us. Those are the places where we are actually at a very real risk of being in danger.
Allowing them into bathrooms opens the door to them coming into those spaces. And thats why it can't happen. Arguing that it can't happen because it makes you feel uncomfortable won't work... since when have women been listened to simply because they were uncomfortable?

HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 00:47

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HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 00:51

Arguing that it can't happen because it makes you feel uncomfortable won't work... since when have women been listened to simply because they were uncomfortable?

That's (sadly) true.

I am not optimistic about complaining to the uni, or the group, or really, anywhere.

Still, she has every right to feel uncomfortable, and I think it is important to let her know she's not alone.

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 00:51

Women have never been listened to simply because they've been uncomfortable as women, in fact there is a current thread about precisely that!

But they should be

And giving up and saying well we aren't ever going to be listened to doesn't help us as much as saying fucking well listen to us simply because we speak

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 00:57

In her mind, it's a room with 2 guys in it. So? She wasn't changing infront of them?

When I used the toilets at work as a changing room I would use the communal part rather than a cubicle - it gave me more space and if someone else came in and wanted to use the toilet they wouldn't have to wait for me. I felt comfortable doing that because I knew it would only be another woman if someone walked in while I was changing.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 00:58

@interestingdebatetoday

Or we can focus the debate on "if you allow this, then you are also allowing them to come into our changing rooms where we will be standing naked. We cant easily run outside if they attack because we will be naked, they won't need to fight to get our clothes off because we will be naked" etc. You need to show real danger. Real threat.

Men coming and going from a toilet where we are fully dressed and have individual lockable doors are not a threat which lawmakers will actually consider real. They may be, but it's not got a big enough impact to get attention. A lot of people, like me, really wouldn't care and wouldn't feel uncomfortable. It just get eye rolls and a response of "lock the door to your cubicle".

You can only stop it by highlighting the domino affect on all our other spaces.

Musthavesbackagain · 02/12/2018 01:01

OldCrone - exactly. If you're in the ladies and you need to momentarily adjust something up your skirt or in your bra, you're okay to do it in front of the sink and not in a cubicle. Women don't notice and don't care. Ain't no way you would dream of doing stuff like that at a mirror in the loos in front of a man - transwoman or not. That's not how women operate.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:03

You need to show real danger. Real threat.

I disagree. If some people are arguing that women should give up female only spaces, it's up to them to prove that they are not necessary and that mixed sex is best for everyone.

Musthavesbackagain · 02/12/2018 01:05

Holsten, when are you going to get it? Fellas don't shut the 'lockable cubicle door' that you keep going on about. They just pee with it open. And then, we all have to see and hear it when we come in to use the toilet with our young daughters.
It's great you're so right on. How about we all get Holsten a big cake and a glass of champagne to celebrate how right are they on?
But when are you going to get it? Women don't want to share their toilets with men, regardless of how they present.

Rattinghat · 02/12/2018 01:05

I am also a bit suspicious of university 'hangers-on'.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:06

@Musthavesbackagain

And the answer will always be "then go into a cubicle and lock the door".

Those arguments will not work. You need to show actual danger. It's crap, but the shocking things are the only things which get noticed or listened too.

SignMeUp · 02/12/2018 01:06

I keep wracking my brains to figure out a way to deal with this, as these situations occur, in the moment.
What if they were confronted by several women stating clearly that they are uncomfortable, and please leave. I know, I know..some of them just want the attention. But maybe most have honestly not considered how they are affecting us?
Or what if we bring a few big, burly men in with us and they stare down the intruders? (Esp in locker rooms) Or teams of fearless women to "monitor" the space. I know, not feasible. Any other creative ideas?
They need to feel more discomfort. It would help to have a ready comment to take them off guard because I think we are taken off guard and can't think in the moment.

HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 01:08

I am not sure it is a good idea to focus only on the "real danger".

We have to put our foot down and get males to respect our feelings, too.

If we justify and justify and are all "Well, okay, I am willing to sacrifice my privacy and safety for what males want, but please, pretty please don't put me in a situation where I will be raped with 100% certainty (prison with male rapists)" then we might be weakening our position.

I know males and their handmaidens don't want to listen. But we can organise protests and force them to listen.

Hoping that they will have mercy on us if the danger is just grave enough ... I am not sure it is the right way to go.

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 01:09

Sorry @Holstenlane but I am done with using trauma that they don't fucking care about anyway to try and justify why I should be listened to as a woman to anyone

I am a woman. I feel uncomfortable. End of.

Sorry if this doesn't help win arguments fast. But we aren't listened to even when we are forced to divulge why we feel uncomfortable. So from me, nope.

Just because I'm a woman is enough now

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:10

@Musthavesbackagain

It's not my answer. It's the answer you will get from policy makers and all the rest of them when you say "but I feel uncomfortable". And saying "men won't shut the door".... that's not going to change anyone's minds. The answer will be "they will when all toilets are for everyone".

Whether you like it or not, people only take action when you show them the danger, the real danger and then the possibility of them being sued if they allow it to happen to you. And those dangers just aren't prevalent in a bathroom. They will be in changing rooms or dormitories. So use those to argue for women's spaces.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:12

You need to show actual danger.

Why? Up until recently nobody has ever suggested that female only spaces could be removed unless we could show that doing so would put us in danger. So what's changed? Why do we have to prove anything? It's up to those who want to make changes to show that we would not be harmed by those changes.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:14

Make men/policy makers/industry leaders etc listen to women is another argument. And one we won't win quickly. I'd rather we win the women's spaces thing quickly. So if that means focussing on the danger they put us in if they open the door by allowing them in toilets, then that's what I'd do. But you need to focus on the bit picture... not just men being aĺlowed in the bathroom (where options to harm are limited) but on what it means... that they can then come in other spaces where chances to harm are great.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:15

Whether you like it or not, people only take action when you show them the danger, the real danger and then the possibility of them being sued if they allow it to happen to you.

Arguably the EA might allow them to be sued for denying women privacy and dignity. Workplace toilet stipulations are quite strict. I think that's what we need to move towards, not telling women their feelings don't matter, but men's do. Our bar should be higher than simply not being raped. You know they will come at you with whataboutery. I actually think the privacy and dignity argument is potentially stronger.

HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 01:16

Or what if we bring a few big, burly men in with us and they stare down the intruders?

That works only as a spontaneous action, but I'd totally ask a male friend to accompany me to the ladies' if the only other people there were males.

He could always claim to be genderfluid and feel very feminine today.

Use their own bullshit against them.

The males who want to invade women's spaces won't care if other males join them, but the student body at large might start to see the light once the toilets become effectively unisex and everyone claims to have a special gender identity.

Oh, something just occurred to me.

@HairyPotter: Tell your daughter that if that happens again, she can just use the men's toilet.

If there's next to no one there, the men's toilet is probably empty. If there's men there, it is men who didn't intentionally violate women's boundaries before, so they're safer to be around than those in the ladies'. (And if they complain about her presence, she can just claim a case of sudden onset gender dysphoria. "I just can't identify with those people in the ladies', I'm not like them!")