DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

[HairyPotter]

So she’s 20 and one of the societies she is a member of also has a trans woman as a member. Although it is affiliated with her university, it is open to anyone with an interest and this person is in their 40’s.

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies to find this person already there. A moment or two later another trans woman came into the loo looking for the first one.

They didn’t do anything but dd felt really uneasy and vulnerable with two male bodied people in her female space. She feels unable to say anything as when she took some woman’s place flyers into uni, someone posted them all over twitter demanding to know ‘what shitty fucking terf’ put these up in ‘her’ uni!

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there? She says she can’t tell anyone how uncomfortable she feels for fear of being attacked.

As for the 'taking a photo' comment, I disagree with that

Fair enough then if so, apologies . Although it did come across that if transwomen are in the ladies then don't assume that they've done nothing wrong. Even if they could be completely minding their own business, assume wrongdoing. Fair enough if that's not what you meant.

If transwomen are women and they have female "souls" or "essences", then why can they not understand that women do not want their male bodies in women's single-sex spaces?

Anybody would think they are clueless.

Although it did come across that if transwomen are in the ladies then don't assume that they've done nothing wrong. Even if they could be completely minding their own business, assume wrongdoing.

I was responding to the information given about this individual. The OP said this about the transwoman in question:

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

This person appears to be a man who sometimes 'identifies as a woman', and sometimes does not. I believe that such a person is 'doing something wrong' simply by using the women's toilets. This person presumably uses the men's when dressed in his suit and tie, so why not do the same when wearing a dress and a wig? The clothes don't make him change sex.

I’ve never been into a female UK loo without closed cubicles.
I’m perfect happy with men, women and trans people using the same closed cubicle lavatories. I wouldn’t be so happy with communal changing rooms.

We need to be careful that the discussion doesn’t tip over into hyperbole. The focus needs to be on the the real threats to the erasure of biological womanhood as a protected status.
Not bogged down in a row about loos!

I say No.

You may not understand the "row about toilets" but that is your problem.

As a woman, I say No to men in women's spaces.

That's a No.

I use the men’s loos at the theatre etc all the time
Head down. scurry in to a cubicle and have a much needed piss.
I’m a adult human female and very much present as one so it must be a bit disconcerting for the AHMs at the urinal but you know, live and let live.
I’ve had four DC. Sometimes it’s a choice between ducking into the men’s or the unthinkable.

Trans people, men in charge of small children, post childbirth or pregnant women, faced with a long queue, elderly people, helpers of a different sex to their charges etc. There are many reasons the ‘wrong’ people may need to use a lavatory.
Lockable cubicles should assuage most fears.

Women are nothing more or less than adult human females though. We have suffered horrific historical persecution. Due to our biology. I agree gender is an oppressive construct (that should not be addressed with medication or surgery)
Sex is a biological fact that has a protected status for a bloody good reason.

Loos though? Let’s pick our fucking battles.

Who on earth does a pregnancy test in a public toilet and then congregates in there to discuss it with other random women using the loo? Other than when in a nightclub or bar where people have been drinking, women don’t strike up girlie bonding conversations with strangers in the toilet. Many many places have just one or two lockable cubicles with sinks that open up in public spaces- eg coffee shops and cafes. They are not unsafe and women and children manage fine.

I agree with the pp who said that we should focus on places where there is a real danger like changing rooms. The notion that going to the toilet is a female bonding experience that we must preserve is a stereotype.

interesting your comment about @ing someone, Verbeena - you know that a lot of people don't like it on MN but you're only going to stop doing it if someone asks you to.

Very typical TRA tactics.

Rivertam lots of people DON'T have a problem with it either, how do you jump from me saying of course I won't if it's not wanted to "wahhh, TRA?!" fgs.

because it's exactly what Debbie Hayton has her arse handed to Debbie about - 'I'm happy to leave the ladies if you ask me to in person but I'm going to carry on using them even though I know loads of you don't like it (to say the least)'.

It's exactly that, and you know it. Being disingenuous - another TRA tactic.

I thought you said you were hiding FWR?

But I DIDN'T say that, in fact I said the exact opposite that I wouldn't at if somebody didn't like it as I've seen people say they really don't!
Somebody called Debbie said the opposite to me so you automatically conflate the two as aha, tactics?!
Just... oookay.

Really don't like it that should say, not really don't

OP I think ideally your DD would make a written complaint. And ideally a lot more students would do so.
Otherwise the University would use the old "well no-one complains" response.

And I bet those two Trans women don't even get why a much younger female would be intimidated and feel uncomfortable with them there. Because of their early socialisation.

These threads are fucking batshit. Doesn't matter what I say, if I ask if someone's ok with me atting, you get "wah, TRA, tactics."
At people anyway, "wah, TRA, tactics.'
It isn't a problem for a lot of people which is why I asked if it was then I wouldn't. (Which I do know as a thread on here not so long ago had people baffled as they didn't even know it was a "thing" and said no problem with it.)
Which is why I asked.
Although this is probably going to get "wah, disigenous" and accused of being this Debbie person's bessie mate or in league or something.

Sorry X posted with Beka, that was to RiverTam who decided to randomly go off on one about me saying I wouldn't at and chunter about TRA tactics.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there?

Nope. She cannot do anything. If she protests, then she will be labelled a "bigot". If the lovelies at Goldsmith's could, they would send her to a gulag for re-education.

Welcome to Patriarchy 2, same as Patriarchy 1. Women do what men tell them to do or face the consequences.

Welcome to Patriarchy 2, same as Patriarchy 1. Women do what men tell them to do or face the consequences.

That's a bizarre comment. Is it the patriarchy pushing the idea of allowing transwomen into women's changing rooms?

Personally though, I don't see a problem with this. First, transwomen may fall victim to violence if they used the men's changing rooms. Second, it's just nudity; there's nothing offensive about a naked body, male or female. Third point, there is no evidence that these transwomen have assaulted other women. Presumably, the fact that there are so few transwomen means they're probably well known to the university, and clearly there's been no complaints about sexual assault, otherwise they would be barred from the changing room.

The only reason why this is shocking is because the UK is still a fairly prudish country. In Germany, people don't bat an eye at nudity. It's important though to be accepting of differences, especially in a liberal society like ours.

LegendaryPJ do you know who Karen White is?

No, the bottom line is that women in Britain - adult female humans, female-bodied - DO NOT FEEL SAFE near men.

Men keep blaming us for that. Yet every time we look at the news, there's another story about women and children being victims of men, and frequently it's associated with how the law is going to let them get away with it too.

Don't bother repeating the rubbish about how Britain is a liberal society. It's not going to magically come true just by repeating it ad nauseam. Women know just how liberal it is: just how unsafe we are walking through the streets.

Is it the patriarchy pushing the idea of allowing transwomen into women's changing rooms?

It's actually the government.

First, transwomen may fall victim to violence if they used the men's changing rooms.

Why? Are men violent or something? Towards gender non-conforming men? Why is this anything to do with women?

Second, it's just nudity; there's nothing offensive about a naked body, male or female.

Which sex rapes? Which sex is more likely to be raped? Which sex is more likely to indulge in voyeurism? Or exhibitionism involving their penis?

Third point, there is no evidence that these transwomen have assaulted other women.

Do we have to wait for them to do this before we can exclude them? Do we have to do the same with each individual man, too?

Presumably, the fact that there are so few transwomen means they're probably well known to the university, and clearly there's been no complaints about sexual assault, otherwise they would be barred from the changing room.

Lots of presumptions and assumptions there. I'd never assume anyone knew anything unless I knew they had been told.

In Germany, people don't bat an eye at nudity.

I've been to Germany. I don't remember seeing anyone walking around the streets naked.

LegendaryPJ by your logic we should just have mixed changing rooms- including men who are not trans. Do you see a potential problem with that maybe? Ludicrous. Not going to engage any further with someone so blind to the issues.

I live in Germany. My local swimming pool has changing village cubicles, non segregated. The toilets and showers, however, are strictly segregated, because yes people mostly shower naked. They recently put up a big "Women only, no entry for men" sign on the poolside door to the showers and toilets. No sign on the door to the men's, there must not have been a problem with anyone trying to intrude there
We usually go in a family changing room

Good for you legendary, why don’t you take your kit off and wander around if nudity doesn’t bother you - bit nippy mind.

(posted by accident there)

in the family changing room there is a cubicle in the corner. If another dad with kids comes in, I (female) or he will opt for the cubicle, if another woman with kids comes in my male DP will also be discreet.

Also, the sauna in this same establishment is generally mixed, but has particular women-only or men-only nights as well, because obviously there is a demand for that.

PJ is a bloke who thinks the answer to male violence is for women to have group sex in public, so may be coming at this from a different angle to some of the rest of us.