DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

[HairyPotter]

So she’s 20 and one of the societies she is a member of also has a trans woman as a member. Although it is affiliated with her university, it is open to anyone with an interest and this person is in their 40’s.

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies to find this person already there. A moment or two later another trans woman came into the loo looking for the first one.

They didn’t do anything but dd felt really uneasy and vulnerable with two male bodied people in her female space. She feels unable to say anything as when she took some woman’s place flyers into uni, someone posted them all over twitter demanding to know ‘what shitty fucking terf’ put these up in ‘her’ uni!

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there? She says she can’t tell anyone how uncomfortable she feels for fear of being attacked.

But saying, as a stand alone argument, "I was uncomfortable that 2 men where standing in the room... whilst I was going into a locked cubicle". The answer you will have screamed at you is that there was no real danger, and even if it had been men and not transwomen there still wouldn't have been much danger.

But that's not my argument. My argument is a series of questions. What is the benefit of letting men into women's spaces? Who benefits and in what way? Why is this better than the current system of sex segregation?

Yes. Why are we required to let males into this female space?

Use their own bullshit against them Yes
Switch the dis-comfort back to them when in our spaces
I want us to share some "sisterly" girly bathroom room chat. Like "Hey Donna, did you read that article about male privilege I sent you?" Or "Have you tried the new fore-skin lotion?" (maybe not) Or just chant trigger trigger trigger trigger penis penis penis" Or something about male pattern violence or other feminist topics. And just ignore them.

Open to ideas because it is becoming a regular thing to encounter where I live.

Complaints- I think thats partly the way forward. Complain to venues/ businesses every single time I feel my rights are being trampled on. Women’s rights are human rights. I’m going to get some of those stickers too and mention the one in two sex offender figure to everyone I know at the earliest opportunity.

the one in two sex offender figure

What's that?

If it happens again, take photo in a way one can tell it is recent (calendar in the background?) and anonymously spread it on the internet and in print at the uni.

What the hell? That is harassment of an individual who hasn't done anything wrong. Really don't see how this differs to TRA intimidation tactics. Can we just remember that we are talking about a person here.
(Am just as GC as anyone else - but this kind of thinking just seems totally removed from any sort of critical empathy.)

That is harassment of an individual who hasn't done anything wrong.

Haven't they? If one day they're in the ladies' and insisting they have a right to be there as a transwoman, and the next they're wearing a man's suit and tie (and no wig) - are you sure they've done nothing wrong?

If they just present differently day-to-day, no problem. It's when they insist they are actually a woman when they're in womanface that it becomes a problem.

Perhaps this thread should have a link on the 'this never happens' thread

Old crone, from the Scottish sex offenders in prison thread. I’ll look into where the figure stayed is from.

Stayed?? quoted

I think what I want to know is, is she (or anyone for that matter) able to say “this is the ladies, you shouldn’t be in here”

There’s a decent chance I’ll bump into them at other events in the future and would have no problem saying that if I was absolutely sure that I was legally in the right.

Am in a no bullshit mode after just watching this excellent talk by Meghan Murphy, and listening to the many idiotic questions posed by audience members

I posted this in the early hours of this morning. It looks like the whole channel the video was on has been wiped. So much feminist content.

We really need to just say no. Fuck off. En masse. Or we will lose everything.

It seems transwomen certainly can legally be refused access to women's toilets. It's written from the TRA side but the provisions are explicitly clear www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/transgender-people-no-right-single-sex-spaces-government-penny-mordaunt-toilets-changing-rooms-a8414771.html

The EHRC also removed a specific sentence from their guidance which implied that you couldn't as a service provider refuse access to female toilets, due to being challenged by Fair Play for Women.

Old, the 48% is from freedom of information request on the bbc news site, I’m rubbish at hyper linking but it’s dated 13.8.18 from a BBC reality check team (seems odd writing bbc and reality check in the same sentence 😂).

I actually think toilets are a valuable point. Because everyone uses them. Not everyone uses spas or gyms, and they can be avoided I suppose (notcthat we should have to) but safe toilets are VITAL for women to be able to exist in the public sphere.

There’s always a male cleaner warning sign and the dynamic is different - this is a known employee doing s time limited, specific job, with a sign up saying they’re in there. The power dynamic is still with the customer - if that man makes a customer uncomfortable the customer / employee balance of power is such that the customer wouldn’t feel intimidated reporting and the cleaner presumably wants to keep their job and is there in a professional capacity.

Loos are important- reminds me of that spitting image song ‘everybody goes to the toilet...’

@HairyPotter

Can she create an anonymous throwaway email account and email her concerns to the university? She could maybe emailing operations and suggest female/ male/ gender neutral toilets?

A male who is employed and paid to clean the loos is there to clean the loos.

We know he has a reason to be there.

What possible reason does any other male have to be in a female loo?

Yes, and a male toilet attendant doesn't expect or require the women using the facilities to pretend that he's not a man.

Part of feeling unsafe, is not being able to say what's actually going on ie that there are two men in the women's toilets.

There isn't any valid reason for men to be using women's toilets, regardless of how they identify. If it's 'because the men's toilets are unsafe' then address the transphobia of men. If it's because it 'validates their identity as a woman', they don't have the right to enlist women without their consent in their fantasy. If it's because the women's toilets are cleaner/nicer, then men's toilet facilities need to be improved.

I was thinking about this thread and thinking why transwomen in the loos would be upsetting and intimidating (as well as the male bodied person in female space thing which I think is valid in itself)... but I think, for me, there is also the thought that if that person behaved inappropriately how difficult it would be to report that behaviour and how likely it would be that your speaking out would have you shouted down as a 'transphobic bigot' rather than taken seriously. I mean if a natal woman was behaving inappropriately in the ladies you could do or say something. If a man, just a man man, was in the ladies you could challenge or leave or report depending on the situation/level of threat and, say you choose just to walk out, that wouldn't be a problem. No one would get cross that you weren't being inclusive or whatever. But a transwoman? What can you do? Suck up your discomfort and get on with it? Because even if you choose to leave you risk being shouted at for being transphobic. And if you stay you have zero power in the situation if they do anything inappropriate... and that's a mental load for the whole time you're in there. Not peaceful. No pissing in peace for women.

I don't know if that makes any sense but it's like they've got you trapped in some kind of power play and whatever you do is wrong.

I don't know if that makes any sense but it's like they've got you trapped in some kind of power play and whatever you do is wrong.

It makes perfect sense. This is all about power.

There isn't any valid reason for men to be using women's toilets, regardless of how they identify. If it's 'because the men's toilets are unsafe' then address the transphobia of men. If it's because it 'validates their identity as a woman', they don't have the right to enlist women without their consent in their fantasy. If it's because the women's toilets are cleaner/nicer, then men's toilet facilities need to be improved.

YY, exactly.

What the hell? That is harassment of an individual who hasn't done anything wrong. Really don't see how this differs to TRA intimidation tactics. Can we just remember that we are talking about a person here.
(Am just as GC as anyone else - but this kind of thinking just seems totally removed from any sort of critical empathy.

Exactly, @velourvoyageur! (sorry if you don't like being atted, I know some don't like people doing it even if it's just the once, won't do again if you don't)
It is the EXACT same behaviour whichever side it comes from, unbelievable that some cant' see that!

Haven't they? If one day they're in the ladies' and insisting they have a right to be there as a transwoman, and the next they're wearing a man's suit and tie (and no wig) - are you sure they've done nothing wrong?

Good sidestepping of the point there - which was this

If it happens again, take photo in a way one can tell it is recent (calendar in the background?) and anonymously spread it on the internet and in print at the uni.

How on earth can your head say that's acceptable? The thread would scream and shout in outrage if TRA's did that.
Why is it alright for radical feminists to do the exact same behaviour?
It really isn't OK whoever it's coming from!

Good sidestepping of the point there

I wasn't sidestepping anything. I was replying to the assertion made by another poster that this individual 'hasn't done anything wrong'. I stand by my response to that.

As for the 'taking a photo' comment, I disagree with that. And it seems so does MNHQ, since they have deleted the original comment.