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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

189 replies

HairyPotter · 01/12/2018 23:36

So she’s 20 and one of the societies she is a member of also has a trans woman as a member. Although it is affiliated with her university, it is open to anyone with an interest and this person is in their 40’s.

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies to find this person already there. A moment or two later another trans woman came into the loo looking for the first one.

They didn’t do anything but dd felt really uneasy and vulnerable with two male bodied people in her female space. She feels unable to say anything as when she took some woman’s place flyers into uni, someone posted them all over twitter demanding to know ‘what shitty fucking terf’ put these up in ‘her’ uni!

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

There’s literally nothing dd can do is there? Sad She says she can’t tell anyone how uncomfortable she feels for fear of being attacked.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:17

I am also a bit suspicious of university 'hangers-on'.

Particularly if they're 'transwomen' who sometimes present as male and want to volunteer with the Brownies.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:17

Why do we have to prove anything? It's up to those who want to make changes to show that we would not be harmed by those changes.

This. Bullshit do we have to prove that one group of male people are safer to be around than other males. Do better. Be stronger. Speak up.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:17

@OldCrone

But they are being taken away from us. Women's spaces are going. So do you want to carry on saying "well, I don't need to prove the dangers, they need to prove we don't need it". Because they don't need too... They are being given our spaces. So if we don't start campaigning on the dangers then our spaces will be gone.

Morally, I agree. Why should we need too? They should. We should be listened to simply when we say we don't want it. But that's not what is happening. And it's nothing suddenly going to happen. So be morally right, and lose your spaces. Or fight using points you don't think should HAVE to be highlighted.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:18

Holsten

IT DOESN'T WORK.

Don't you think these arguments have been made?

HestiaParthenos · 02/12/2018 01:21

I increasingly suspect that arguments won't help any, at all.

We need to protest in the streets. To just walk into men's toilets and changing rooms when there's men in the women's.

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:22

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

I agree.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:22

@Ereshkigal

They work a lot better than someone saying "I feel uncomfortable when I see 2 transwomen standing in a bathroom where I was fully clothes and could go into a cubicle and lock a door". That argument just doesn't really have much impact.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:25

They are being given our spaces. So if we don't start campaigning on the dangers then our spaces will be gone.

But an argument which forces them to prove that mixed sex is better is a stronger one. They want to change how things are. So they have to prove that they are making an improvement on the current arrangements. That's how it normally works when people want to change social and cultural norms.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:25

That's a really dishonest way of portraying what the OP was saying. They don't work. People don't give a fuck about women. Don't fucking roll over, call it out. Challenge it. You mentioned it before, our position needs to be consistent. No males in women's spaces. It undermines everything.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:26

That's how it normally works when people want to change social and cultural norms.

Yes. Don't pander to this entitled bullshit.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:28

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

The Man Friday activists made the men uncomfortable when they went into their changing rooms, but we still haven't won this one.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:28

They work a lot better

No. They don't.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:28

@OldCrone

Which would have worked a few years ago. But they have very successfully made it "wrong" to question or not go along with them. Politicians and businesses are falling over themselves to support the trans community. It now seems very much like what they say is met with nodding and yes man responses. That's what you're fighting.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:30

The Man Friday activists made the men uncomfortable when they went into their changing rooms, but we still haven't won this one.

Agree, but that was fairly small scale. And they achieved a lot. They got the issue into the public eye in a big way. They got misogynistic Stonewall penned guidance binned.

This is a war. Ongoing.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:33

Holsten

We know these things. We don't need a potted history of transactivism. I don't believe we should pretend that ladies' toilets aren't important to women. They are, to the vast majority.

Holstenlane · 02/12/2018 01:33

@Ereshkigal

I agree, no men in women's spaces. But arguing the bathroom thing alone... It doesn't have much impact. If it wa solely related to them being allowed in public bathrooms and nothing else, then I wouldn't get worked up. A lot of people wouldn't.

I, and a lot of people, don't want them allowed in bathrooms purely because it opens the door the the other spaces where we really are vulnerable. Defending those spaces is easier. So saying "you cannot let them in bathrooms because then men can come into our dormitories where we are asleep and can't defend ourselves, or our changing rooms where we are naked etc etc".

But saying, as a stand alone argument, "I was uncomfortable that 2 men where standing in the room... whilst I was going into a locked cubicle". The answer you will have screamed at you is that there was no real danger, and even if it had been men and not transwomen there still wouldn't have been much danger. That may or may not be true, but this the response you will get. Which is why I said right at the start that focussing only on the bathrooms isn't going to get the job done.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:36

Holsten

Polite request. I am on the thread responding. Please stop @ing me. It's a useful function when someone wants to call you back to a thread. But you don't need to do it when I am right here. Could I ask you to respect my wishes on this.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:37

Holstenlane

As soon as we capitulate and agree that we have to prove that we're in danger just to keep what we already have - we're on the way to losing. We have to stand our ground and say no. We don't have to prove anything. They do. And if they can't, then things have to stay as they are. No men in women's spaces.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:37

Why are you calling toilets bathrooms? Are you American?

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 01:38

I think when women are arguing about arguing... it's exactly what a lot of them want. Us to distract ourselves from the fact they aren't listening while we work out how we might make them listen

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:38

What Oldcrone said.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 01:40

And they achieved a lot. They got the issue into the public eye in a big way.

I agree - I didn't mean to sound negative about their achievements. They did a lot to get this into the public eye.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:41

The answer you will have screamed at you is that there was no real danger, and even if it had been men and not transwomen there still wouldn't have been much danger.

I prefer to challenge this type of bullshit rather than pander to it.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:43

I agree - I didn't mean to sound negative about their achievements. They did a lot to get this into the public eye.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you, I wasn't, just saying that it all counts and the war won't be won immediately.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:45

Am in a no bullshit mode after just watching this excellent talk by Meghan Murphy, and listening to the many idiotic questions posed by audience members

Meghan Murphy speech at event hosted by Lindsay Shepherd
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3440206-meghan-murphy-speech-at-event-hosted-by-lindsay-shepherd