Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

I feel like that about toilets too (I’m sorry bringing toilets back) I don’t WANT unisex loos with separate cubicles and whatnot I WANT female loos, I like being female. I am female

Yeah. I am fine with washing my hands next to other women. In fact, I always feel a bit claustrophobic in those completely closed cubicles that are necessary for safety from voyeurism in unisex toilets.

If, for some reason, I faint while using the toilet, or even just get locked in, I want other women to notice.
(And no, I don't men to know if I am unconscious, or really, just feeling unwell. We all know what a lot of men do to unconscious women.)

And I say that as a woman who had the experience of another woman accidentally opening the door I hadn't properly locked while I was on the loo.
It was a bit embarrassing, but since the other woman was actually female and had the very same body parts as me, it wasn't a big deal.

I don't think it would only be TRAs who would welcome a more fluid gender landscape. I think that a great many people would favour a blurring of gender lines and who is to say that after years of the lines being blurred they don't disappear altogether?

Because "gender" isn't the issue. Gender is sex role stereotypes. The issue is sex.

I don't think it would only be TRAs who would welcome a more fluid gender landscape

TRAs don't want a more fluid gender landscape, they want a more binary one in which they can be recognised clearly as one gender or another.

I think that a great many people would favour a blurring of gender lines and who is to say that after years of the lines being blurred they don't disappear altogether?

Well, they were getting more blurry by the 80s, in fact right through the 20th century progress had been made - mainly with women being allowed to do things that had previously been reserved for men. By the 80s we were seeing more men embracing things that had been reserved for women (men wearing makeup, the 'new man'...).

Now we've gone backwards. So maybe a non-gendered society wasn't what some people wanted after all. And the TRAs are doing their best to make everything even more rigidly gendered. They don't want a gender-free landscape at all.

If men started to become more gender fluid the first people to complain would be TRAs.

Maybe robots will take over the world and eliminate all humans? Who knows, eh?

Imagine - no possessions. I wonder if you can?

I don't think it would only be TRAs who would welcome a more fluid gender landscape. I think that a great many people would favour a blurring of gender lines and who is to say that after years of the lines being blurred they don't disappear altogether?

Second Wave feminism already had not just "blurred gender lines" but was on its way to competely abolish gender, when transactivists came and told boys that liking pink meant they must deep down really be girls.

Perhaps it wasn't just transactivism that lead to the return of gender stereotypes, but it definitely isn't helping any.

When I was a little girl, I had a single! pink shirt. Only one. There was no gender segregation in children's clothes at ALL.
Look at children nowadays.

You are slowly starting to get on my nerves and I only joined the forum today. This is a feminist forum, why don't you read at least a tiny little bit about feminism before posting here?
Why not inform yourself about what feminism can, indeed, achieve without denying basic biology?

Imagine - no possessions. I wonder if you can?

Yeah, who knew John Lennon was actually singing about that idyllic time post human extinction....

Women of child bearing ahe will always be seen as potential mothers - and that comes from both men and women.

Yes!! Exactly! Women as a class are oppressed because of the biological potential of their sex.
The way around this is not to create a dystopian future where men also give birth but to create a society that is honest about that and restructured itself to minamise the damage. Denying the sex class of people who gestate the babies the language with which to name their opression is sooo dangerous.
How can a woman claim they are being unfairly dismissed because of pregnancy if legally men can get pregnant too?

What’s more likely?

That we’ll one day be able to implant a functioning womb in a man or that we’ll find out what is causing gender dysphoria and fix it?

Because if gender dysphoria is caused by hormones as some TRAs claim then it’s going to be a hell of a lot easier to fix that than harvesting a viable womb from a donor and implanting then into a body which is biologically incomparable with it.

Incompatible.

Welcome Hestia

find out what is causing gender dysphoria and fix it?

I'm pretty sure that is literally violent hate talk right there!

TRAs don't want a more fluid gender landscape, they want a more binary one in which they can be recognised clearly as one gender or another.

This.

Back when there only were transsexuals and it was still allowed to state biological facts, I wondered what those people, whose "womanhood" relied only on such trappings as high heels, make-up and skirts, would cope in a world where those things aren't considered markers of a gender role.

I think I have a clearer idea of that, now. They would either (but that probably mostly goes for the effeminate gay men who transed out of sheer desperation) happily wear the clothes they want to wear and be glad no one notices, or ... they'd totally freak out and demand gender stereotypes back.

It tears up literally every piece of legislation that protects women that feminists had to fight tooth and nail to get.
So pardon if we don’t get all excited at the thought that maybe some day farvij the future men might get to experience the joy of motherhood.

find out what is causing gender dysphoria and fix it?

I'm pretty sure that is literally violent hate talk right there!

From my Twitter discussions with TRAs I am actually pretty sure this is classified as incitement to genocide.

In answer to the original Q ‘no, they will think that we were all on drugs’

Welcome Hestia

Thank you!

In answer to the original Q ‘no, they will think that we were all on drugs’

I sincerely hope so.

@Aspie: I think talking about finding a cure is considered hate speech. Even though they demand that health insurance pays for surgery. For those who want surgery. Of course, being dysphoric isn't a requirement for being considered trans (and literally the other sex) anymore ... it is all very confusing.

I think that a great many people would favour a blurring of gender lines and who is to say that after years of the lines being blurred they don't disappear altogether?

Sure... it's gender critical feminists who want to do away with gender though. No 'gender', no stereotypes - just the reality of sex, and a clear understanding of structural sexism leading to working out how to mitigate against that sexism.

It’s very simple.

For radical feminists, gender is not an axes of oppression.

SEX is the axes.
Gender IS the oppression.

Gender is a performance but one that is performed UPON you even if you try to opt out.

My university professor (who, at the time, I thought very old fashioned) predicted that in the future women would merely be the weak version of humans, having lost their special life-giver gift to technology.
I can kinda see what he was on about now.

I remember a newspaper article a few years back by a transwoman, in the fashion pages or Sunday supplement, which basically took women to task for not performing femininity as some sort of act of solidarity with transwomen. The gist was "if you're all letting yourselves go and wandering around in jeans and sweatshirts, how can we do a successful performance of femininity ourselves?" I think the author wanted women to wander around in M&S skirts and blouses so that they could don a rather more sparkly skirt and look like some kind of rare bird of paradise against a backdrop of dowdy female blackbirds. The article was, as I recall, infuriating and idiotic in equal parts.

In similar vein, wasn there someone else complaining about goths being androgynous but not 'non binary' or suchlike?

errol
Yes there was. They were complaining that when straight Male goths wore gender non conforming clothes it made transwomens lives more difficult because then they were ‘read’ as men wearing clothes rather than the clothes being a signifier that they had magically changed into women.