Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

I think I focused on the mother because she is the more forceful with her views, the father is more passive. I think it is his responsibility to counter some of the more extreme stuff and he doesn't.

Rough play is important for all children. It helps to set boundaries and recognise when you've gone to far. Children who haven't had that opportunity don't know when they're hurting others. Eg judo was invented in Japan for schools I believe for this very reason.

It’s a shame you didn’t respond to Nonagray’s post Op. I found it very relevant and thought provoking.

But the topic is the message feminism is giving to boys about themselves you simply can't expect feminists to reach out to women and girls without a few conversations that men don't like to hear. Female biology for example. Periods. Men have hated female-centred conversations since time immemorial.
I feel you have been side-tracked by a male perspective that screams "feminists want to oppress men! They are man-haterz!" They have always said this since women first became political. It's a lie. It's used to further ensure patriarchy.

But they also call those qualities [competition, ambition, standing up for themselves] toxic when men display them. When women do, it's empowerment

No, feminists don't consider these things toxic. Toxic masculinity is the masculinity that leads to violence, rape and to disrespectful behaviour. Feminism wants to protect boys from developing these behaviours and the only way you can do that is by talking about them.

One way you can protect men from being acrapist is by teaching them about rape myths, about consent and respect. You can't do this without talking about examples of men raping women. Sorry if this makes you uncomfortable with feminists.

OP Do you see patriarchy or do you think it's some sort of conspiracy theory?

Any time the boys engage in any kind of rough play with each other, she stamps it out. Any form of aggression or expression of curiosity about the nature of violence is jumped on and they are berated. Only kindness and compassion are allowed. This just seemed .... wrong.

Why do you think it is wrong for boys to be kind and compassionate?

any expression of curiosity about the nature of violence

What does this mean? I have a son and yes I would stamp out violence. As I would with a daughter. Are you implying violence is an integral part of being male?

Your two examples seem to be very niche and specific (a woman you know, and a talk you went to at school once), and yet you have extrapolated from them to describe all feminism. You have had many, many responses answering your questions and frankly being far more patient than is justified.

Your one parenting example had been countered by numerous examples in this very thread, which you have ignored. Including @NonaGrey above (which was brilliant!) So however your one friend may have interpreted feminism, it is clearly not the one message.

Oh the men in prisons weren't told they could become anything as kids so they ended up being criminals? How many girls that do get told they can do and be anything they want and have a girl power song to listen to.... end up not becoming what they want and have little to no power because of our society?

It's men's job to provide good role-models for boys in real life. Entertainment media is cattering to boys 95% of the time.

^ One way you can protect men/boys from becoming a rapist

Any form of aggression or expression of curiosity about the nature of violence is jumped on and they are berated. Only kindness and compassion are allowed. This just seemed .... wrong

Really? I also have 2 boys, and I also stop them when normal play turns aggressive, or they punch or kick each other, or glorify violence from TV or computer games. I think that's completely correct!

I'm taking responsibility for masculine aggression and violence by not encouraging it, by expecting my boys to grow up able to control themselves and not think that punching other people is OK - their father believes similarly.

I'm really not understanding why compassion and kindness is bad. Why on earth wouldn't we want to encourage those traits in our children?

nona great post.

Op your post about your friend’s dc is full of sexist stereotypes about men. Being good at violence isn’t something innate about men. I hope in the interests of equality that you seem so bothered about you are equally scandalised that your friends with daughters are not teaching them how to fight.

NonaGrey - sorry I missed your amazing post. You very well sum up everything good about feminism.

Imagine how good it would be if people were treated as unique individuals not as members of a class.

Yes, imagine not being here blaming a whole class of feminists and, instead, challenging individual men on their behaviour.

That would be great, thanks.

Kindness and compassion are great. But every child has to learn to look after themselfes, get their shit together, stand up for themselves and others, be responsible. Kindness and compassion and being "nice" alone just makes you into a doormat.

He isn’t “complicit too” he’s equally responsible.

You are implying that he’s helpless in the face of her poor choices.

He’s not.

He’s their father. He can speak up, give input, give balance, challenge his wife if he thinks she’s wrong.

That’s his responsibility.

So either he agrees with her and they are united in their parenting.

Or he’s weak and devolving his responsibility to her.

Either way OP a weekend snapshot of parenting doesn’t give you anywhere close to the whole story,

She may have very good reasons for stamping on their rough play. Perhaps experience has taught her that it descends very quickly into actual violence and physical damage and blood. Perhaps there have been problems at school with rough play crossing the line. Perhaps one of the boys uses rough play to subtly intimidate the other. A weekend is not long enough to know.

There is no one right way to raise a child. There is only the right way to raise your own child.

Feminists, eh? What are they like? Why oh why don't they focus more of their energy on boosting the self esteem of boys when that's clearly what a movement the name of which clearly references female humans should be about.

Gosh, it's like they've totally forgotten how precious femininity is...

NonaGrey you are right, he is equally responsible.

I mean to say I have problems with their style of parenting not hers. Thank you for pointing that out.

"Feminists, eh? What are they like? Why oh why don't they focus more of their energy on boosting the self esteem of boys when that's clearly what a movement the name of which clearly references female humans should be about.

Gosh, it's like they've totally forgotten how precious femininity is..."

Good one 👍

Nona you are very quick to make excuses for the parenting of a couple you don't know.

I have known this couple for 7 years and spend several visits year with them and the kids.

Covering your ears and saying "la la la don't talk about it, NAMALT" gets no one no where.

There was an amazing educational program in I think Nigeria a country that had/has an extremely high rate of rapes, young girls had virtually all experienced or knew a girl who had experienced rape.

Feminists helped put in place a program in schools teaching consent to boys, and discussion of rape.

It works now to massively reduce the instances of rape. Boys are happier. They are taught to be the protector of their female siblings and friends and they feel better in themselves.

I know this is an extreme and specific example but it does go to show feminists are helping boys and men and girls through tackling toxic masculinity directly not pretending it doesn't happen, in case a few boys are made to feel uncomfortable.

I'll try to find the link.

And I know that there have not been problem with violence going to far or anything at school. I know this because I have talked about it with them.

But thank you for your concern and explaiang to me where I must have got it all wrong.

Tbh I read the FT every morning and often I play a game which goes ‘how many pages of pictures of powerful people (politicians, world leaders, CEOs of global businesses) before there is a picture of a woman?!’

You would be horrified sometimes at how far you can get. Not always, obviously, but OFTEN. Honestly, once I thought that if you were an alien reading the papers you would come away thinking that the world was inhabited by one sex.

Women are still dramatically absent from the upper echelons of power. They do not look up and see a natural chain of command/well-established old girl’s club waiting to haul them up and welcome them in.

None of you are really responding to the point which is YES TEACHA ALL THIS AND SHOW POSITIVE MESSAGES TOO.

You all seem to be against positive message to boys then? Punish them for the crimes of their gender, right? That'll show them.

Kindness and compassion are great. But every child has to learn to look after themselfes, get their shit together, stand up for themselves and others, be responsible. Kindness and compassion and being "nice" alone just makes you into a doormat.

Hence the need for feminism.

Women grew up having their aggression stamped out, not allowed to play fight, expected to step aside and not stand up for themselves. Told that being kind and compassionate was the ideal for them. ie. Women were groomed by society into being doormats, and feminism is us learning to stand up for ourselves.

Interesting that in your OP you said that the problem with feminism was that it told women they were victims, but now you've come full circle and told us that the traditional way to raise women creates doormats, and you don't think that it's right that boys should be subjected to that.

I'm pretty sure many more female children are admonished for violent behaviour than their male counterparts.

I have girls, and I do 'allow' rough play, but also have a strict "No hitting" policy. Which covers all violent action. And it's always age appropriate. Small children are less familiar with where the boundaries lie, so need more reinforcement about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour.

I don't think berating violence is a good indicator of boys not being allowed to be boys.

And I know that there have not been problem with violence going to far or anything at school. I know this because I have talked about it with them.

Oh yes school. Where girls are being raped and nobody from the DfE seems to give a shit. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364173-Our-kids-were-raped-by-classmates-DfE-wont-listen