Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

OP i dont know if you're male or female but this hand wringing "what about the poor menz" attitude is not helpful to an equality agenda. I see a lot of male rights advancements in the name of equality whilst female rights currently being trampled (e.g. trans agenda).

@gingerpusscat Girl power was a thing when I was a child (didn't the spice girls invent it?). Its not done much to smash the glass ceiling in mine or any other industry i know.

In fact i saw my friend's dd singing little mix ive got the power and i thought how girl power has come around again and its still the power to dress sexily and sleep around. Would be nice if girl power was linked to leadership and real authority, but that wouldn't make a good pop song and sell well.

This has made me think about the message my 6yo and 2yo get about masculinity from the media. The children’s tv they watch has an overwhelming preponderance of Male characters as leaders/explorers/rescuers, and the ratio of Male/female characters is still heavily dominated by the Male (shows like Octonauts and Go Jetters have 5/2 and 4/1 male/female leads respectively). These shows thus represent several different positive ways to be male, and a far more limited range of femininity.
I think the reason why there is this explicit messaging for girls around ‘girl power’ is that this balance still dominates so much of our culture. And I don’t at all agree that it’s not out there for boys too- there’s a lot of equivalent clothing and merchandise targeted at boys linked to being heroic/adventurous/intelligent etc.
Having said that, better representation of masculinity as gentle, caring, artistic is badly needed (though that does come through in some kids shows).

@Her0utdoors, exactly, its like that song: "who runs the world? GIRLS".... er no they dont.

Btw my autocorrect put all those capitals on ‘male’!

I had this conversation with DH a while back; he commented that feminism has done a good job of teaching girls that they can be/do anything, but that boys need to be taught the same. He looked at me expectantly. I asked him if he thought that was feminism's job and he said yes. I asked him why and he looked perplexed at the question

Look, I tell my boys that they can be anything they like in the world and that there are a lot of bad people out there who do bad things and who are RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. I'm hoping that they will a) have the courage to be what they want and b) try to avoid doing bad things. I'm certainly not going to stop talking about the impacts of those bad things on women.

There may not be an equivalent of 'girl power', but there's also not an equivalent of 'run/throw/cry like a girl' either.

It's alright saying that feminists need to say nice things to boys, but men need to stop calling boys girls as an insult too. Or is it mean of me to say that?

pancaketosser tosser - 100%, agreed how about feminists say nice things to boys and everyone stop using girls as an insult as well. Both can happen, right?

Gosh yes op, those bloody feminists always trying to give females a strong sense of self. It's just laziness that they don't do the same for men.
I mean, it's almost as if feminism is for females only or something.

Contessa - street gangs, boys stabbing each other. The prison population. You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they. They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

TheMyth - I don't think it's laziness, it probably more thoughlessness or lack or vision.

OP I think you may have made a mistake posting this on the feminism board. It seems people are willfully misunderstanding you. For what it's worth I actually agree with you to an extent. I don't think there's any issue with highlighting the damage caused by male violence, but I agree that it's hard for boys to know what their 'role' should be. It's hard for girls too but I think it's becoming easier all the time with feminist issues becoming more talked about in mainstream media etc. Meanwhile for boys it's getting more difficult as they're still really bound by traditional male stereotypes (boys dont cry, boys are tough and strong, boys like fighting and rough play etc) but they're also increasingly encouraged to be sensitive and caring and gentle as well. I think it's hard to know what society expects 'masculinity' to be now.

Obviously ideally everyone would just be who they are without having to perform a gender role, but in reality we aren't there yet and our children do pick up ideas of how they should behave based on their gender , no matter how their families raise them or how much we try to protect them from it.

OP - could you give some examples of the sort of thing you mean?

Contessa - street gangs, boys stabbing each other. The prison population. You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they. They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

And that’s all the fault of feminists, is it, all that male violence? I’m not sure you’re posting in good faith, tbh.

Call me cynical - an account opened today, posting at around the same time that other in bad faith accounts have previously posted, berating women for being horrible to poor menz and not rescuing them or centring them.

How about taking that message to a men's forum and asking them what they can do to sort out the problems of their making?

Feminism can liberate men from performing toxic masculinity if men decide they want to stop performing toxic masculinity.

I'm not asking you to do anything except talk, and help me find out if I am right or wrong (and not by attacking my character and motivations but by the content of the discussion...)

This forum is one of the best places to discuss feminism in a sane way. Yes I did create the account tonight. I have been a lurker reading hewre for a while though.

Yes I could take this up with a "men's forum" as well but do they exist. I jknow there are some horrible anti women MRA sites but what sense would I get there.

Could you give some examples of the sort of thing you mean, OP? I am certainly very conscious as the mother of a boy tht I am bringing up part of the next generation of men-and have had some very interesting discussions both on here and in RL about it.

ICJump - so men have to stop being toxic of their own accord, and then once they do stop, feminism will help them stop being toxic, after they aready stopped. Right...?

The current message is not positive for boys or girls.

There is an entirely mixed message between ‘this girl can’ and the idea that in any bad relationship the powerless girl/woman has been somehow ‘groomed’ (a word so stretched that it has ceased to have any meaning) to behave passively and has lost all self determination.

What teenage boys take from it is they a/ ‘can’t’ and b/ are in some way toxic. Teenage girls ( not all of whom actually ‘can’) feel failures for not living up to the strong image that they are always told to aspire to.

We have gone backwards from the 80s and 90s when the message was that men and women were an equally important mix of the good, the bad and the competent and incompetent. It felt much more nuanced.

BertrandRussell - I'm trying to think of a good concrete example that isn't trivial and stupid. I'm more describing an overall theme or feeling rather than a specific instance. And I realise this is a lame answer.

Two separate issues.

Feminism - your flavour of (there are a variety) is not the same as mine.

Boys. I am a mother to two. It is MY job to educate and raise them - it is not the job of the feminist movement.

International men's day was last week.

Ah, that's nice for you dear. Fear not, I'm sure feminism will get on fine without you.

There are plenty of things that men could do today that would make the world a better place for both men and women. The trouble is that mostly they don't want to-because it would mean giving up stuff they like and (sorry) "checking their privilege"

Feminists on here and elsewhere talk frequently about the damage enforced gender roles are doing to men. We talk constantly about it. Perhaps you have missed it. One of the most important things I have done is talk to my sons about their future relationships with women. Do you think that only benefits women.

"And I realise this is a lame answer."

Yes, it is rather-considering you feel strongly enough about it to start a thread.