Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

Trippingalongalong - I support everything feminism is doing for women. Not sure why people feel the need to argue with me on that one.

My "concern" is for what it the endless negativity about men is doing to boys. Without a balancing positive message.

You all seem to be against positive message to boys then? Punish them for the crimes of their gender, right? That'll show them.

There was this public information campaign that tried to get children to eat more vegetables and I have therefore concluded that the people behind it don't want children to eat fruit or drink milk ever! In fact they must want to ban oranges, those juice hating fiends.

You all seem to be against positive message to boys then? Punish them for the crimes of their gender, right? That'll show them.

Sex not gender.

When was the last time you walked down a kids clothes aisle?

Boys clothes covered in slogans about being brave, fierce, strong.

Girls clothes covered in slogans about being pretty, perfect and princesses.

NonaGrey very true. Girls hear so much crap all the time. Make privilege is being blissfully unaware of the problems a gendered society brings because a gendered society ultimately benefits them.

All children need positive messages and positive role models.

Boys shouldn't grow up believing their future is one of being violent to women. That really isn't the message we are trying to give boys.

I do agree with you about some sections of feminism being anti men, but that isn't the section that I align myself with, and I don't think it is the loudest message out there.

Interesting that in your OP you said that the problem with feminism was that it told women they were victims, but now you've come full circle and told us that the traditional way to raise women creates doormats, and you don't think that it's right that boys should be subjected to that.

It was, and is, wrong to raise girls to be doormats.

And the sol;ution is not to raise boys to be doormats.

The solution is that all children, girls and boys, boys should be raised the same and encouraged and allowed to develop into their own characters as fully reaslised humans.

The solution is that all children, girls and boys, boys should be raised the same and encouraged and allowed to develop into their own characters as fully reaslised humans.

And that there is feminism.

(And needless too say ""not all feminists", right? Just because I say "feminism this and that" doesn't mean I mean YOU (whoever is reading this). You are not like the others, I get that.)

(although I would change "the same" to "without gender expectations").

The message feminism has for boys - "you are sick and disgusting, but if you don't abuse or oppress women, you will be tolerated #YesAllWomen"

You only need to look at the thread where the poster is asking how she manages to take her son to the toilet if he is too old to use the women's toilets.

Many posters on there saying basically he has to use the men's and tough if it's not safe. Let him learn how girls feel. Most of them saying from the age of 8 and one particularly lovely poster saying boys over the age of 6.

So little girls can be kept safe with their mum but little boys should just be left to it and if something bad happens? Oh well. Now they know what women and girls go through.

Nice!

PurpleOva - "And that there is feminism."

In theory. But in practice it shames boys and men with nothing positive to say. That needs to be fixed, I think.

OP, maybe you should go to the Cats Protection website and berate them for ignoring dogs.
Feminism is for women.
If men don’t like their hugely privileged patriarchal position of power, violence and abuse, they can organise their own movement to change it.
Your post makes about as much sense as saying charities who rescue trafficked prostitutes should start helping those poor dear suffering pimps and johns instead.

Many have said "well culture and the media is full of positive images for boys and men, so feminism doesn't have to" to which I say, really, you want your boys to grow up like the men they see on movies and TV?

Why does Battersea dog shelter not rescue dolphins? Bastards.

Babdoc - feminism is for women and it could do a lot more for women if it started being a bit more positive about men.

The solution is that all children, girls and boys, boys should be raised the same and encouraged and allowed to develop into their own characters as fully reaslised humans.

And you think that allowing them to be aggressive and investigate violence is the way to do that?

We believe differently. I think that teaching all children to be kind and compassionate will result in a far better society than one where we let all the kids get into a good scrap and do nothing to stop them.

Hi OP.

I think as long as you bring your children up to be respectful to everyone, regardless of gender/sex, then you can't really go wrong.
I am a 31 year old woman and as far as i am concerned, i have never experienced sexism to any large degree my whole life. Of course you are going to get the odd comment/situation in life, but if it's the odd occurrence and not the norm then it's not really an issue as there will always be ignorant people. I have always done what i want and never questioned whether my vagina is holding me back. I don't have a victim mindset and don't go looking for things to be upset about, which to be honest, i think a lot of women do nowadays (i.e. posts about 'should i be offended by this..?). If you have to ask whether to be offended, then you're not!

I think this whole 'men have been in charge for years, now they can listen to women' is a bit rubbish on the feminists part. The men that exist today aren't the same men who were around 100 years ago. I do think they are hammered down constantly by feminists for having a penis and i don't think it's fair on them.

The idea of gender/sex equality is to treat everyone the same, yet feminism is constantly trying to find things that make us different and i find that quite counter productive.

My daughter has heard that message from school

nona, if you feel it’s the staff in your children’s school who are reinforcing damaging gender stereotypes, ask to speak to the head about it.

There are probably two GC staff in my small primary school, but we need parents to back us up. I’ve had the head of practice at the Sex Education Forum (a charity that advises schools) tell me it’s damaging to separate reception age into lines of girls and boys to go home (it’s the quickest and easiest way). The strongest messages schools are getting from the government and genderist organisations reinforce gender stereotypes. We can’t do it on our own.

So how do you counter boys growing up to be like men on tv without teaching boys that they should value other parts of their character such as kindness, sensitivity etc? Because I thought you just said that it wasn’t a good idea to do that as it turned them into doormats?

And you think that allowing them to be aggressive and investigate violence is the way to do that?

I do. Learning about their bodies, capabilities, what violence is, how what it means to hurt someone - it is best done through playing at it.

Everyone must have the capability to defend themselves and others. Shielding kids from understanding of their own capacity for violence makes them weak doormats.

And it makes afraid of everything, anxious.

Kindness and compassion and being "nice" alone just makes you into a doormat.

No, again I have to completely disagree.

Being nice and kind and passive can make you a doormat.

But kindness, compassion combined with strength, good judgement and the self confidence to take action can make you a leader.

My son is tall for his age. He’s very athletic and so he’s strong, visibly so.

He’s challenged bullies at school multiple times.

He’s never lifted a finger. He doesn’t even raise his voice.

He doesn’t threaten violence.

He has a quiet, conversation where he points out to the bully the error of their ways and pleasantly suggests they cease and desist.

And they do.

Any why do they?

Because he’s male
Because he’s tall
Because he’s strong
Because he’s popular

Because they all intuitively understand that these ^ things give DS power^.

He doesn’t have to actually fight a fight they all know he’d win.

If it came down to the court of playground opinion he’d win.

If it was brought before the teachers he’d win (straight A student, very well behaved)

DS has power. He’s doing what we asked him and wielding it better.

And the girls? The girls adore him. Not because he’s tall, popular and good looking.

They love him because he’s kind.

Kindness and compassion does not equal doormat.

Where did he learn how to deal with the bullies? His Father, who was just the same at school.

Nona just wanted to say thank you for your brilliant post. I’ve got a boy and a girl as well (very young) and it really saddens me that my daughter’s life is going to be so much harder than my son’s.

but I do worry girls might be transitioning to join the gender who can be taken seriously as valuable human beings regardless of how they look. The pressure for teenage girls to be a certain weight, have perfect make-up, and perform a certain type of ‘femininity’ really scares me
Scares me too. Where does this come from? In my experience peers at school apply the pressure. It's not cool to study hard, to be good at sport if you're a girl. You have to look a certain way (including now the bizarre eyebrow trend). This pressure is applied by other girls.

Girls and boys are being failed by the messages and nothing will change if everyone spends time arguing who is responsible for changing what.

Why does a positive message to girls have to include a negative message to boys? Surely even if you think it's not a feminists job to boost boys it doesn't mean the alternative is to do them down? And given that many single parent families are headed up by women it is important that boys in those families receive positive messages to stop the cycle being repeated.

Surely that is the aim. To improve the future for everyone?

So how do you counter boys growing up to be like men on tv without teaching boys that they should value other parts of their character such as kindness, sensitivity etc? Because I thought you just said that it wasn’t a good idea to do that as it turned them into doormats?

Teach them to be the master of all parts of their character yes. I have said that repeatedly.

I am against suppressing parts of character.