Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

I’ve not seen these messages about men from feminists. I am a feminist. I have a DD and a DS, and bring them up to be respectful and to see gender stereotypes for what they are.
I can’t see any men being told to stand aside either.
I honestly don’t get your post. The ‘man hating’ accusation has been levelled at feminists for ages. Getting sick of the cliche.

There was no suggestion at all that 6 year old boys should go to the men's loo "in order to experience the fear" that girls and women do. The discussion was about why it is always girls who have to modify their behaviour to accommodate the safety and comfort of boys, and suggesting a way that the roles could be reversed. You are completely misrepresenting the poster concerned.

BertrandRussell

Well we shall have to agree to disagree. Many other posters read it exactly as I did.

Who in their right mind thinks it's ok for 6 year old boys to have to go into the toilet on their own or wait outside the ladies on their own while their mum goes in? What purpose does that serve and why mention at all then the fact that girls have always had to be aware of the danger of some men so boys should be aware too?

If I've so misunderstood explain it to me from a more positive viewpoint.

No. We do not have to "agree to disagree" You are completely wrong, and misrepresenting the poster concerned.

Nona said:

How do you get society to throw out stereotypes? You can effect change over time by good people doing the right thing.

I agree with that. And not just by "doing" the right thing, but by discussing and teaching and persuading other people to change their views of what the right thing is. That's why it's important for people who have power or influence to use it the right way - even if we think that the reasons why they have that power are unfair or due to stereotypes.

One of the things that the trans debate on twitter keeps throwing up, is how many ordinary, decent men simply don't have a clue about the way women are constantly oriented when out in public to be on guard against predatory males. Over and over, we hear about men who are shocked to discover this.

Now, we could just say that these men have a responsibility to pro-actively investigate women's issues and problems and find this stuff out for themselves (while at the same time arguing that men should stay out of feminist discussions).

Alternatively, we could discuss how best to leverage the limited power we have, and what are the best strategies for effectively getting that message across. The trans issue could be (and to some extent already is) an excellent opportunity for educating men about this.

I believe that changing social attitudes will be painfully slow work, but I also think it is possible. And also necessary: I suspect we are approaching the end of what legislation and pressure groups can do.

1: Women are responsible for what men do.

5: Feminism must be useful to men or it is worthless.

10: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

"How do you get society to throw out stereotypes?"
A good start would be by not mocking feminists when we draw attention to them. The usual mums-net response is "haven't you got anything important to worry about?" or "people are just looking for things to be offended by".

It's amazing how much those rules come up, isn't it Pencils?

I don't "explain" things to people who've already decided that understanding would be politically inconvenient. I'm far too busy brainwashing my gazelles into freezing when they spot a predator.

It’s ok not to be a feminist. I for women don’t like this female victimhood trope that some groups of feminists espouse. I was raised to believe that women were just as capable as men and therefore just as responsible for themselves as men. Yes women are at a disadvantage, yes, in some few ways we are not as powerful. But we are only victims if we allow ourselves to be. I have never been and never will be anyone’s victim. End of. There are a lot of things that I agree with in femenism but a lot that I don’t agree with as well. That’s fine, that’s my choice and anyone who truly believes that women should be in control of their own lives should be able to respect my exercise of choice even if they don’t respect the choice itself.

I have a 17 year old son who hadn't seen sexism much. Since alcohol has become part of socialising (he turns 18 this school year), he sees with blaring lights a dark different side to male behaviour. He has completely changed his tune from "women have equal rights legally so we don't need feminism" stance.

You might not feel like a victim but don't you feel something for vulnerable women in developing countries who can't even go to the toilet without feeling unsafe, the victims of Asian child rapist gangs... They need women in a stronger position to help pull them up

No. We do not have to "agree to disagree" You are completely wrong, and misrepresenting the poster concerned.

Well I and other posters on that thread disagree with you.

Explain what was meant if I am so wrong.

I don't "explain" things to people who've already decided that understanding would be politically inconvenient.

Good point - I agree that when people have made up their minds, there's little point in arguing. On the other hand, on many public forums, there are far more lurkers reading than people posting, so it can sometimes be worth carrying on, because lurkers are much more likely to be open-minded.

However, while there are undoubtedly many who have entrenched positions because "understanding would be politically inconvenient" (nice phrase), I believe there are also a lot of people who simply haven't thought about the issues. When you're politically aware and follow the news and opinion pieces, it's easy to assume that other people have the same awareness, but actually a lot of them don't. And that will include some men (IMO) who are genuinely fair-minded and morally inclined enough to learn and understand feminist perspectives.

I don't think anyone is arguing that all feminists should be engaging in this. But I don't understand why it shouldn't be discussed as an option.

It's up to you to decide who you think is worth engaging with. Others can also decide that certain people aren't worth the effort.

I have a 17 year old son who hadn't seen sexism much. Since alcohol has become part of socialising (he turns 18 this school year), he sees with blaring lights a dark different side to male behaviour. He has completely changed his tune from "women have equal rights legally so we don't need feminism" stance.

You must be proud of him! But you raise an interesting point - with sexism less blatant than it used to be say 40 years ago, it ironically makes it easier for people, especially young people, to assume there isn't a problem. Personal experience can be a real eye-opener.

That's why I think the 'exercise' described in the opening pages of this book

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1402204019/?psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&coliid=I1AV9WBM5KXYUY&tag=mumsnetforum-21&colid=AIULHAY9W1QP#reader_1402204019

is so effective. Having both young men and young women in the room, and the young men experiencing the difference between their own responses and those of the women. It wouldn't be half as effective if those young men had been in a classroom on their own. The moral weight of actually experiencing something first-hand is often much more psychologically persuasive than acres of talk and written words.

"Explain what was meant if I am so wrong."

I did. At 13.11.

It's up to you to decide who you think is worth engaging with. Others can also decide that certain people aren't worth the effort.

Of course. I'm not sure anyone is saying otherwise?

Having said that, though, I do think really good discussions sometimes arise here from opening posts that are seriously against the grain of majority opinion, or are even goady, because they take off from the opening post and leave it behind, or illuminate how it lacks argumentative substance. It's the principle of the devil's advocate in action, I think.

Bertrand does not work for you and is not required to explain anything to you if she doesn't feel like it, Weetabix.

I don’t want to derail - this is an aside about the toilet thread so ignore if wanted!

but I took part in the men’s toilet thread - I understand, I think, the context of the poster saying that boys should perhaps be given a panic whistle and taught to be wary like girls are (though I don’t think that 6 year olds in general are young enough to go into the toilets on their own). I took issue with the phrasing as in the context of sending boys into men’s toilets alone, it did feel like some posters were minimising fears or suggesting that boys should just deal with the risk because girls also have to deal with lots of risk. I can’t say that was the intention of that poster or other posters and I think in fact most people agreed that men’s toilets being dangerous is basically men’s fault and that women shouldn’t (ideally) have to be responsible for sorting it out (though lots of practical suggestions were offered and I found the thread and the different perspectives very helpful). However I was certainly one of the posters who felt that the issue of trying to ensure young boys’ safety was sometimes being conflated with men’s responsibilities for women’s and girls’ safety, rather than seeing (as I guess I do) it as a problem of how men don’t safeguard either women or children, of both sex. This was my inference from some bits of the discussion.

I did. At 13.11.
No you didn't. The posters said that after 6 boys should not go into the ladies. That they should be given a whistle if necessary to summon help. And that girls have for a long time had to alter their behaviour so let boys do it.

No one is suggesting that 6 year old girls get left standing on their own outside the gents toilet while their dad goes in with a whistle if necessary because no one would think that leaving a 6 year old on their own is ok.

Yet some posters agreed that boys should just suck it up.

Bravo to the posters staying calm under this mountain of ill thought through misogynistic claptrap.

And handclap to NonaGrey in particular.

Mostly rolling my eyes, honestly, bucking. Battle of wits, unarmed person, etc.

PencilsInSpace - yup this thread in a nutshell. There’s something very misogynistic about trying to use Feminism to beat women around the head with.