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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

385 replies

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 03:11

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

OP posts:
Lweji · 24/11/2018 08:51

Lewji - I'm not blaming women. I'm blaming feminist movement as it manifests in our culture. There's a difference.

Whatever, you're still blaming the wrong group.

You should focus on mysoginists not feminists.
They're the ones responsible for the poor image of men, because it's not an image problem. It's a reality problem.

It looks like you'd rather have feminists patting men on the back while they still mistreat women and keep them in their place.

BertrandRussell · 24/11/2018 08:51

"I'm blaming feminist movement as it manifests in our culture."
One last try. Examples?

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 08:54

Lweji - really i'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm trying to be constructive about making things better.

Imagine how good it would be if people were treated as unique individuals not as members of a class.

Alas we are tribal.

OP posts:
FamilyOfAliens · 24/11/2018 08:55

I don't much care for the various agendas the schools push

I couldn’t leave this unchallenged.

Staff in schools have their hands tied by the LA and the DfE. If we are told we have to affirm a pupils gender identity on pain of losing our jobs, what do you expect us to do? We are trying our best to encourage children of both sexes to challenge gender stereotypes but we are now being told by powerful pro-trans organisations that, for example, we have to teach children that “most but not all boys have a penis and most but not all girls have a vagina”. We know it’s bullshit. But our voices are not being heard.

OP, it seems you have just the one example of a school event that focused on male violence and you’ve extrapolated it to the entirety of the school system and feminism. That’s why people aren’t taking your viewpoint seriously.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 08:56

OP, it seems you have just the one example of a school event that focused on male violence and you’ve extrapolated it to the entirety of the school system and feminism. That’s why people aren’t taking your viewpoint seriously.

You might be right.

OP posts:
DryIce · 24/11/2018 08:57

Imagine how good it would be if people were treated as unique individuals not as members of a class.

This is exactly what I have always understood feminism to aim for. The problem is class structure and issues do exist. We don't make them go away by not drawing attention to them

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 08:59

This is exactly what I have always understood feminism to aim for.

I agree and so instead of sayin "men need to fix ...." /// "men tneed to take responsibiity for...." as if "men" exists as a concept that can "do" anything. Only individiuals can actuially do anything.

OP posts:
SonEtLumiere · 24/11/2018 09:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DryIce · 24/11/2018 09:02

I agree and so instead of sayin "men need to fix ...." /// "men tneed to take responsibiity for...." as if "men" exists as a concept that can "do" anything. Only individiuals can actuially do anything.

And yet your whole post is about what feminists should do

BertrandRussell · 24/11/2018 09:02
SonEtLumiere · 24/11/2018 09:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 24/11/2018 09:04

There is plenty that individual men can do. They just, in general, don't.

kitschen · 24/11/2018 09:04

Do you honestly think that feminist mothers of boys (there’s quite a few I would imagine) go round berating their sons, stifle their ambitions, talk them down etc... whilst bigging up their daughters? Every day my Feminism informs my dealings with my children (I have one of each sex) and it’s not a competition. I’m hoping to raise, rounded happy children who see both parents giving good examples of what it takes to make society fair. Doesn’t always work because no one is perfect.

OP do you have children? What are you basing your ideas on? Do you perhaps have a son that is having a hard time? Do you need some tips on how to build his self esteem? Give some concrete examples and I’m sure you’ll get some great input on here and on other boards on here.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 09:05

Don’t you think the lead on this should come from men?

I think we all as individual should play our part without dividing people and being tribal, and and stop blaming individuals for the crimes of their gender.

OP posts:
Deathgrip · 24/11/2018 09:08

I have two sons. What they see from the media is that men run the world. They make up almost all world leaders, most politicians, the vast majority of CEOs, the vast majority of senior management roles. They’re the protagonists in most films, TV shows, books.

If women are more likely to be victims and men are more likely to be violent, do you think feminism is somehow to blame? Or that they should just shut up about it?

NonaGrey · 24/11/2018 09:09

I have a son and a daughter.

My son has never, ever been told he couldn’t do something because he was male. Never.

My daughter on the other hand had heard the message that as a female she couldn’t x, y or z by the time she was three. (Not from us I hasten to add).

By the time she was 4yo it happened so often that I taught her to say “Unless the game/job/activity activity requires a penis of course I can join in”.

No one had ever told my son that his clothes might be inappropriate. Or send a sexual message.

My daughter has heard that message from school.

No one has ever told my son that his natural face, natural hair and natural body aren’t enough to be attractive to the opposite sex.

Meanwhile my daughter is bombarded with the idea that women must dye/style/straighten/curl their hair, paint their faces and nails, pierce their ears, remove their body hair, pad/stuff their bras and recently wear a fucking corset.

My children have never been told that cooking and cleaning and childcare was all their full time working Dad’s responsibility.

They were told by among others the school very early on that cooking, housework, laundry and childcare were “Mum’s job” despite the fact that she also works full time.

My DD challenged a Mother’s Day exercise where they were asked to name their Mother’s favourite chore. She politely asked the teacher if the Father’s Day Exercise would ask the same question.

My son is male, white, middle class, heterosexual, Protestant, educated, intelligent, athletic and good looking.

He can truthfully be anything he wants.

He is more privileged that 99% of the people on this planet.

The future does in fact belong to him.

I can’t honestly say the same to his sister.

I can’t even tell her she’ll be safe walking home in the evening.

I can’t tell her she’ll never be harassed, groped, assaulted or attacked.

I can’t tell her that how she dresses doesn’t matter.

I can’t tell her that she won’t be dismissed, talked over, not promoted and slandered when she starts work.

I can’t even tell her she’ll earn the same money as her brother if they do the same job.

I can remind her she’s amazing just the way she is, I can warn her about the patriarchy and teach her how to negotiate it, I can teach her how to stand up for herself, I can teach her how to keep herself safe.

Things I don’t have to teach her brother and will never have to teach him.

And yes, he knows about #metoo, and he knows that violent offenders are overwhelmingly male and he knows that men wield the power in society.

What we are teaching him is that when it’s his turn to weird the power it does it better.

We are teaching him that when it’s his turn he needs to let women into the club.

We are teaching him that he stands up for women when he hears sexist or sexually objectifying language.

We are teaching him to be a defender not a bully.

His Dad and one of his Grandfathers are excellent role models for wonderful versions of what it is to be a man.

It makes me so angry to hear the message “poor men” because we are fighting to address centuries worth of inbalance and injustice against women.

We aren’t anywhere close to equality and the “poor men” message is just another way of trying to put us back in our boxes.

My feminism has been stronger than ever since I had my children because I see my brilliant talented son’s future path lying shining before him and I see my brilliant talented daughter’s future path covered with even more obstacles than I had to contend with.

So don’t whine to me “what about the poor boys”

The poor boys are fine just as they’ve always been.

SonEtLumiere · 24/11/2018 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 24/11/2018 09:10

This reply has been deleted

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AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 09:10

OP do you have children? What are you basing your ideas on?

No. But in part .... I was staying recently with friends that have two boys. The mother is terrified the boys will turn out to be violent monsters (she actuaslly said this to me in those words). Any time the boys engage in any kind of rough play with each other, she stamps it out. Any form of aggression or expression of curiosity about the nature of violence is jumped on and they are berated. Only kindness and compassion are allowed. This just seemed .... wrong. How casn these boys grown into healthy, responsble, strong men if they can't become the masters of themselves. Being taught to fear their own nature.... not good.

OP posts:
AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 09:11

Should add that the boys are not especially violent or nasty. Just normal kids. her worry comes from her immerson in VAWG topics which she is heavily into.

OP posts:
StroppyWoman · 24/11/2018 09:12

They aren't crimes of a gender, OP, they are crimes of a sex.

They are crimes coming from entitlement, aggression, inability to express themselves, violence, misogyny, misdirected fear and a million other traits that are the result of patriarchal structures.

Feminism fights to dismantle those structures and somehow it's feminists you think aren't pulling their weight?

You're talking out of an orifice not meant for that function.

Feminism is about improving the lot of women and girls in society. Feminism is about fighting sex-based oppression.

It's like yelling at Cat Protection for not being Dog's Trust.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 09:13

so perhaps you need to read more rather than try and debate from a position of self-declared ignorance?

Perhaps, but by debating I am learning. You are free to not participate in this thread if you find it uninteresting. There are plenty of other threads.

OP posts:
NonaGrey · 24/11/2018 09:14

And their father OP?

Don’t you find interesting that you haven’t mentioned his responsibility or input into his son’s upbringing?

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 09:15

NonaGrey - good point. The father takes the lead from the mother and backs up what she says so he is 'complicit' too.

OP posts:
MsTSwift · 24/11/2018 09:16

Nona that is an amazing post and should be required reading for any “what about the men” posters.

Op what is your response to nonas post?

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