Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

Haven’t read everything but I’m a secondary teacher in a large school where a handful of students are transitioning - all, without exception, female to male. So I’m not sure boys are transitioning to escape toxic masculinity, but I do worry girls might be transitioning to join the gender who can be taken seriously as valuable human beings regardless of how they look. The pressure for teenage girls to be a certain weight, have perfect make-up, and perform a certain type of ‘femininity’ really scares me.

I haven’t asked any of the trans students about their reasons so I am only speculating, but it does linger uncomfortably in the back of my mind.

As far as I’m concerned, the job of feminism is to dismantle the patriarchy so nobody gets trapped in a restrictive, narrow, damaging role because of the genitals they were born with. Girls who want to reject make-up/excel in physics/wear ‘boys’ clothes/be assertive leaders should be able to do so without feeling that’s incompatible with being female. Boys who want to wear make-up/do ballet/play with ‘girls’ toys/be gentle vulnerable people should be able to do so without feeling that’s incompatible with being male.

BertrandRusself - "In what ways are boys being made to feel ashamed and inhibited?"

Feminists teach boys that the only personal qualities of value are kindness and compassion. All other qualities (competition, ambition, standing up for themselves) are to be suppressed for fear of becoming an oppressor and a monster.

Do you think that black activists should worry about the message they are sending white people when they campaign for their rights?

I'm saying they should think asbout the message they are sending to boys as they correctly fight for the rights of women.

This is what the problem is.
Feminists are having to fight.

This is because for some reason men are resisting equality.

Why aren't you making men responsible for equality?

Why aren't you making men responsible for their own image and behaviour?

We constantly say NAMALT. But it's not for feminists to make men look better than the crap job some men are doing of it.

CS12345 - Do you think that black activists should worry about the message they are sending white people when they campaign for their rights?

Yes.

Feminists really don't teach that ambition etc are bad characteristics. Why do you think that?

"Feminists teach boys that the only personal qualities of value are kindness and compassion. All other qualities (competition, ambition, standing up for themselves) are to be suppressed for fear of becoming an oppressor and a monster."
Do they? Where? How? Who? Please could you give some examples?

Why aren't you making men responsible for equality?
Why aren't you making men responsible for their own image and behaviour?

I'm not talkign about who is responible.

I am talking about the cause of feminism and its self defeating methods about how it communicates.

Feminists teach boys that the only personal qualities of value are kindness and compassion. All other qualities (competition, ambition, standing up for themselves) are to be suppressed for fear of becoming an oppressor and a monster.

This is simply not true.
Feminists have been teaching women to stand up for themselves and compete with men in real life.

The main problem in society is that kindness and compassion are seen as weaker qualities. Less worthy of men by comparison with competition.

Men as a whole don't benefit from it - see higher suicide rates among men.

BertrandRusself - "Please could you give some examples?"

err... the content of the majority of feminist literature and campaigning?

Can I ask what your "Feminism" sources are? What feminist books have you been reading? Because I don't recognize your interpretation at all!

"I am talking about the cause of feminism and its self defeating methods about how it communicates."

But refusing to give any examples of how "it" communicates........

I don't think it's self defeating. It's been pretty successful over the last 100 years. Still a long way to go.

You still haven't answered how you think feminists are telling boys that they can't be competitive, ambitious or stand up for themselves.

Lweji - This is simply not true.
Feminists have been teaching women to stand up for themselves and compete with men in real life.

Yes they have, and rightly they do. But they also call those qualities toxic when men display them. When women do, it's empowerment.

"err... the content of the majority of feminist literature and campaigning?"
Right-maybe we're getting somewhere. Can you pick out the most egregious example you've read/seen/heard recently?

I am talking about the cause of feminism and its self defeating methods about how it communicates.

For one, feminism is not a club. It has many different voices and different ways of presenting it's message.

But the main message is equality and fairness between men and women.

Yes, you keep blaming women and keep talking about image over substance.

Go on a male oriented forum and challenge male behaviour and attitudes.

Go and challenge males that post threats against women on social media.
That's the people you should focus on for how men are seen.

The majority of feminist literature tells boys not to be competitive, ambitious or stand up for themselves? What?

I think females need the support of feminism more than males, right now

Apartheid. Black people can't travel on a nice warm comfy bus to work. They have to walk. Only white people can travel on the bus. Black people campaign for the right to travel on the bus. In this example, in what way should the black campaigners concern themselves with the message this sends out to white people?

But they also call those qualities toxic when men display them. When women do, it's empowerment.

Toxic masculinity is not about those qualities is about only valuing those qualities.
Can you see the difference?

Yes birds, all that was in the bbc documentary and how a lack of it damages boys.

I'm speed typing due to being mum of two boys

The patriarchy and misogyny is self perpetuating if it's not being dismantled for the sake of boys and girls. Hence why radical feminism is so much about being anti gender stereotypes. I believe in the past this focus had to be more about liberating women; now it's definitely for both.

The creators of Sonshine magazine created for this reason. Not a fan of the Xmas present lists (too pricey!) but some excellent articles on why raising boys matters too.

sonshinemagazine.com/

Lewji - I'm not blaming women. I'm blaming feminist movement as it manifests in our culture. There's a difference.

I wish I could find the previous threads on this.

There's a quote I'm trying to find also regarding it never being right for girls until we make it right for the boys too.

Lweji -

I can agree that we should teach both our boys and girls to fully embrace all their personal qualities, whatever they may be, and learn to harness them the good of themselves and everyone around them.