Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they.

How do you know that?

They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

Again, how do you know that?

I don't see why it's women's job to educate men in how not to participate in toxic masculinity.
There are these groups out there, e.g.
www.goodladworkshop.com/about/
Which are not run by feminists.

I made too broad and assumptive a statement there, my apologies. Should say, not run solely by women.

Crypto that looks really good - Thank you for the link!

BertrandRussell - Well I agree every one of us could do something today to make things better in the world but most of us won't do much.

But the topic is the message feminism is giving to boys about themselves.

Perhaps being born a male IS something to be ashamed of. I haven't seen any message from feminism to the contrary.

Do you have any thought on that, or any examples of feminist movements that have addressed positive messages about being a boy?

Larry I agree with both your points! I don't much care for the various agendas the schools push and I ask my boys to question the rhetoric - and frequently start discussions with "well that's not true...".

Awild, I am sure Bert can answer for herself but I have just mentioned ways in which feminism supports boys.

The boys in gangs or who grow up and go to prison because they have low self esteem or expectations (at least I'm assuming that's what you are getting at with this post) don't feel that way because they are male but more likely because they are poor or disadvantaged in other ways. All boys don't have the same trajectory or background. The world has many possibilities if you are a white well educated boy from a wealthy/ middle class background.

I don't think either of my children have particularly absorbed any of the messages you've set out in your OP. Although dd and the majority of her female friends have been sexually harassed (generally on a number of occasions) or assaulted (some very seriously). Nothing even vaguely similar has happened to ds. So forgive me for thinking the girls need centering and the boys are generally really fairly OK.

OP I totally agree! Could not have said it better myself- I’m fed up to the back teeth of the hypocrisy of feminism it is supposed to be about the equality and empowerment of women but the suppression and degradation of men! I see it ALL the time ‘we are better then men- men are wrong and terrible’ is a blanket message.

This morning I read a thread where OP openly admitted to coming off her pill and lying to ‘trap’ her young fiancé into having a child with her and now being bitter that he left her because he couldn’t trust her!! 😮 (not even a subtle admission- she laid out exactly how she’s lied and deceived and oclrchestrated the whole thing) and people were STILL taking her side, saying things like ‘why wasn’t he wearing a condom’!!! OMG 😠
Apparently nobody should ever trust anybody else...your husband of 15 years should be wearing a Condom incase you’re lying to him- all men should always assume women are lying to them as any reprocussions of not doing is the males fault! 😂🙈 WTF is the world coming to?

*please excuse the typos I have a cuddly cat on my chest batting at my phone

Peeved,

I also agree that feminism’s concerns should lie with girls and women (and, as a man, I should not really have input into it).

However, the message schools give to both sexes is very much my concern and, sadly, they seem to be very easily swayed by every passing fad (‘growth mindset’, ‘thisgirlcan’, Mermaids etc etc).

It saddens me that this often seems about scoring brownie points rather than actually helping all children and young adults develop genuine resilience (the resilience agenda in schools often achieved the exact opposite).

Where pressure groups interact with schools, though, they should be careful of delivering a nuanced message and encourage questioning, not the reverse.

Just to answer the statement you made to me, op, I went looking and found these results from the first wave (n>3000) of a longitudinal survey in British prisons.

Many prisoners had problematic backgrounds:
 Twenty-four per cent stated that they had been in care at some point during their
childhood. Those who had been in care were younger when they were first
arrested, and were more likely to be reconvicted in the year after release from
custody than those who had never been in care.
 Many prisoners had experienced abuse (29%) or observed violence in the home
(41%) as a child – particularly those who stated that they had a family member
with an alcohol or drug problem. Those who reported experiencing abuse or
observing violence as a child were more likely to be reconvicted in the year after
release than those who did not.
 Thirty-seven per cent of prisoners reported having family members who had been
convicted of a non-motoring criminal offence, of whom 84% had been in prison, a
young offenders’ institution or borstal. Prisoners with a convicted family member
were more likely to be reconvicted in the year after release from custody than
those without a convicted family member.
 Eighteen per cent of prisoners stated that they had a family member with an
alcohol problem, and 14% with a drug problem.
 Fifty-nine per cent of prisoners stated that they had regularly played truant from
school, 63% had been suspended or temporarily excluded, and 42% stated that
they had been permanently excluded or expelled. Prisoners with these issues
were more likely to be reconvicted on release than those without.

These data, to me, show that parental/family influence is important, but not defining in terms of criminality (or the percentages would be much higher). The cohort is 91% male.

So we come back to the importance of free will and teaching boys/men to make better choices.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278837/prisoners-childhood-family-backgrounds.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiA5IbJxuzeAhXLAcAKHSQXBpgQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1WsKPkSBmFB9W-FPJ2nirj&cshid=1543046461035" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278837/prisoners-childhood-family-backgrounds.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiA5IbJxuzeAhXLAcAKHSQXBpgQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1WsKPkSBmFB9W-FPJ2nirj&cshid=1543046461035

birdsdestiny - sorry I missed your message at the bottom of previous page

"Feminists on here and elsewhere talk frequently about the damage enforced gender roles are doing to men. We talk constantly about it. Perhaps you have missed it. One of the most important things I have done is talk to my sons about their future relationships with women. Do you think that only benefits women."

That migh be a good example of positive messaging but i'm not sure. It sounds like the message is only "positive" in that that it is about respect. But it also defines a man's worth in relation to the way he treats women. Not about their own intrinsic value.

The message feminism has for boys - "you are sick and disgusting, but if you don't abuse or oppress women, you will be tolerated #YesAllWomen"

I really don't know where you get this from.

Is it from feminists talking about facts? Because if we don't talk about gendered violence women and girls are subject to from men and boys who will?

I know many feminists, most of them radical, and apart from lesbian separatists (who are doing great job of raising awesome boys), most quite like men. This doesn't mean the issues stemming from patriarchy & gendered violence go away. Men suffer from both as well and men really need to get more involved in confronting and changing toxic masculinity, inequality etc. But as been pointed out they might have to give up some privilege to do so.

It's not feminists job or role to be responsible for everyone. And centring "feminism" on men ceases to be feminism.

Contessa - thanks for the data and input. I'm not sure it refutes my claim that these men were not told they could be anything they want. But then, you are right I can't know that for sure either.

Op I had this concern as a mum of boys and a teacher.

Feminism is also very much about changing those structures that make it harder for the female sex. That includes making sure that young boys are given the correct messages that helps them to grow up to not be another part of those problematic structures.

Robert Webb's book how not to be a boy illustrates this well, as did the bbc documentary no more boys and girls.

The "mighty girl" messages need to be there for boys too except they get a lot of this in culture already.

I want to write more but it's my turn to let dh have some bed slouch time while I do parenting stuff. (I've had a good long slouch!)

No it shows them that the values of kindness, empathy etc should be celebrated. Supporting boys to express their feelings rather than other more toxic behaviour is celebrating boys, it's freeing them.

Admittedly no, it doesn't refute it, but I thought it was interesting in terms of family environment information (which I had actually thought was more influential tbf)!

the clitterati "I really don't know where you get this from. "

I get it from the observation that, in its drive to do good, feminism tends to overwhelming talks about men as rapists, abusers, and patriarchal tyrants. And it has no positive message to boys about their own worth to counter that. I'm not saing "it's not fair toe men" - I[m saying this is counterproductive for the cause of feministm.

As I see it, the message of feminism is about equality. At the moment, in an unequal society, that could (if you were slightly disingenuous...) present as favouring the building up of girls and women. In actual fact, a lot of the things feminism fights for I think would benefit men - for example the equal pay fight is pushed as being pro women, but if it eventuated men would have equal time with (and responsibility for) their families, and be liberated from the expected pressure of being sole breadwinner.

What does make some feminists (including myself I must admit) roll their eyes a bit is this idea that feminists must expand to prioritise men. Feminism came about because women felt so passionately about their liberation, men are perfectly able to create their own version and make t-shirts saying boy power if they so desire.

And we do not live in an equal society. If boys want examples about how "they can", and reinforcement of their potential - I suggest they look at the vast majority of world leaders, CEOs, famous sportspeople etc

Indeed Neurotrash, Robert Webb's book is a positive message for boys ( I think, I am only half way through) and certainly feminists in here promoted it so much I assumed they had shares in it

Awild- themyth was being ironic in her comment - that much was pretty bloody obvious - yet you took her literally.

If you think that it's the role of feminism to put up a good fight for men, then you couldn't be more wrong.

Let me ask you a serious question. Do you think it's the role of black activists to fight for the rights of white people?

birds - it seems you are saying that boys are valued only to the extent that they display traditional "female" qualities. Traditional male qualities such as ambition, competition, and standing up for yourself are shameful, to be suppressed.

Drylce,

The problem with your message is that, if boys grow up lacking fundamental self confidence, they are more likely to develop into examples of ‘toxic masculinity’.

Feminists (NAFALT) might say but men are responsible for men, not my job or business.However, I don’t think this splitting of sexes is helpful, especially considering that the vast majority of parents are 1 man + 1 woman still.

Everyone should be giving positive messages to everyone else, especially children. What is far more open to debate is what these positive messages should consist of...