Watch live Government debate on self ID

[Goldenbuzzer]

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/55146a39-db05-4cb8-b256-41ddbc47f2bc

Hope this works. We should all be able to watch the Westminster hall self ID debate today at 9.30 am live.

Not sure if you can go back and watch it later...

It is bizarre that we have one man standing up for women and a gang of sugary naicey naicey emotional women standing up for men to be thought of as women (complete with beards which women have to [tinkle]) Stepford

Annandale I may be wrong, but I remember thinking as I listened to her reading out comments from constituents this morning that she was highlighting their fear, and thereby implying they were dim women who simply didn't understand something beyond their narrow experience. Pinning her down to answer specific questions about how safeguarding will work and showing up the gaping holes in her argument may be the way to go

Ah! Thanks Annandale that is extremely interesting background.

Very few women at the top of their profession, including politicians, will openly state that they are feminist.

This is because if they were a radical feminist they would not have reached this position. They’ve had to laugh at men’s jokes about rape, and turn a blind eye to inappropriate behaviour. They don’t always agree with #metoo. If they had tried to advance their careers while being openly feminist then they would not have got very far, so have either suppressed this part of themselves, or have been put off advancing at all.

So the female politicians we have are those who have done well in a man’s world.

If Layla said she didn' know about Karen White she is lying as I wrote to her about him and she responded to my letter (general risk assessment, TWAW, blah, blah, blah).

Heather Petos sob story of sexual assault will probably be the norm for women with beards before long hmm (although I think the dilemma of whether to go through the indignity of reporting being grabbed by the tits or the fanny is a perfectly normal female everyday occurrence

Its outrageous that the female prisoners who were sexually assaulted by K. White (a predatory male witha long history of assaulting children and women) experience is not acknowledged and yet Heather Peto's experience is heard.

The four female prisoners were locked in with White, by the state. So too the rest of the women in New Hall whose privacy, dignity and safety was compromised. Some forced to use communal showers with him.
When are their voices going to be heard?
There are female prisoners right now locked in with violent / abusive males who identify as women.

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Claude Knights (safeguarding expert recently retired after 15 years as head of Kidscape)
on sex offenders who transition and are afforded the opportunity to change their name and hide their history as a consequence & recent case of "Christopher Noble, 32, transitioned to Christyl Knight while behind bars for keeping a stash of over 4,000 vile pictures and videos of kids as young as six months old"

“Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”
“Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

[[www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/]]

I may be wrong, but I remember thinking as I listened to her reading out comments from constituents this morning that she was highlighting their fear, and thereby implying they were dim women who simply didn't understand something beyond their narrow experience. Pinning her down to answer specific questions about how safeguarding will work and showing up the gaping holes in her argument may be the way to go

I was thinking as she was speaking that she seems like a privileged woman who has never experienced life outside her nice middle class world, and that she had not thought very deeply about the transgender issue. Interesting that she seems to think the women who wrote to her are dim and lack understanding, because that's exactly how she appeared to me.

I agree that she needs to have her simplisticand complacent arguments challenged.

If Layla said she didn' know about Karen White she is lying as I wrote to her about him and she responded to my letter

It wasn't Layla who said that, it was Lilian Greenwood

Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman has cited a case and claimed that it proves that the Government should not change the law on gender recognition, yet that case, of which I do not know the detail, has happened under the current arrangements.

She didn't say much in the debate, but she was firmly on the TWAW side (despite appearing to know very little about the issue).

I expect it was a carefully organised pile on fronted by female MPs for the cause.

the female politicians we have are those who have done well in a man’s world.

This. Women in powerful positions got there by being good at the patriarchy game, not by representing women or women's interests. The whole point of handmaidening is to get pats on the head from the Men for being a Good Girl. It's incredibly sad so many women feel they have to do this.

Layla Moran being put up in her constituency was a huge surprise for a lot of people as it was a very anti-Brexit constituency and had had a Lib Dem MP for years before Nicola Blackwood was elected. LM had failed dreadfully to make any headway in the 2015 election so her being put up again suggested that the Lib Dems were not hopeful of taking the seat (very poor strategists it seems). When she seemed to be doing better than expected, the Lib Dems got their act together and poured people and money in and she won by a tiny margin. Nicola Blackwood was awful in lots of ways, but LM really is quite thick. She's always going on about being a teacher but very cagey about where. I think this is because she's hardly taught in the state sector though she goes on about it. As I said before, she defended page 3 in a hustings my friend went to. God help the Lib Dems if this is the best they can do.

Which one was Lilian? Was she in green or the young clueless one in black?

Re: the attitude of the women MPs who spoke and their abuse of compassion:

I have often found myself in settings where liberal allies of that movement try to divert a difficult discussion by claiming the moral high ground of compassion. With each of these encounters, I become increasingly frustrated at this “compassion-as-cover” dodge that seems designed to give liberals a way to avoid accountability.

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/11/19/compassion-cover-transgender-allies-dodge-debate/

So disappointing to have a bloke making the arguments for women's rights and a couple of women doing the TRAs' bidding for them.

Bloody hell, the sheer contempt you have for women who disagree with you is mind boggling.

It's really depressing to find that our elected representatives are actually massively uninformed about this issue, yet happily turn up and give their opinions about it

That is depressing indeed. More depressing still, the woman who scoffed at David Davies’ suggestion that she should have taken the time to engage when women’s groups came to the commons. She was too busy listening to Helen Belcher, but clearly not too busy to turn up today to argue. She said she’d engaged with constituents, but it’s clear from this thread she wasn’t listening.

Also self-ID is being introduced BEFORE the legal changes. The problems with it are already becoming clear. But these idiots are arguing that because these things are already occurring, they are not the fault of the legal changes. I really want to scream. No, they may not be a result of the changes, but the changes are only going to make them worse.

I’m so frustrated!

I honestly feel sick. My one hope is that David Davies will be able to rally enough Tories to stop this bullshit.

Bloody hell, the sheer contempt you have for women who disagree with you is mind boggling.

Not that they disagree. That they appear ignorant and brainwashed and are in power and chose to stand up and argue for men to be given women’s rights on their say-so.

They are beneath contempt.

She was too busy listening to Helen Belcher, but clearly not too busy to turn up today to argue. She said she’d engaged with constituents, but it’s clear from this thread she wasn’t listening.

Helen Belcher / Trans Media Watch
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3402078-R4-World-at-One-Janice-Turner-and-Helen-Belcher

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3393577-Janice-Turner-accused-of-causing-trans-suicides

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399989-janice-turner-suicides-should-never-be-used-as-a-political-weapon

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3429309-ESRC-sending-millions-of-pounds-to-Sally-Hines-Leeds-Uni-to-research-gender-bollocks

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397127-Stephen-Whittle-Press-for-Change-irresponsible-use-of-likely-suicides-follows-Helen-Belchers-Trans-Media-Watch

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2783139-Trans-media-watch-are-lobbying-mnhq

I find this all really worrying. If David Davies wasn't there, would anyone else take his place???

Layla Moran (LibDem) MP has been notably supportive of Sarah Brown (LibDem LGBT+ and Stonewall Trans Advisory group)

She is also best buddies with Helen Belcher.

The excellent James Kirkup has a very fine thread about Layla Moran and her comments with some astute observations by commenters, including Prof. Kathleen Richardson:

It is 2018. There is a Member of Parliament who says she can see into people's souls.
"I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body." - Layla Moran MP (in a debate about violence against women.)

It's worth reading through the thread.

twitter.com/jameskirkup/status/1065232705548374016

Words fail me......watching that debate......the female MPs were closed off to genuine discussion and debate, and their body language confirmed that: shaking heads; arms folded, sneering mouths.....shocking! I just don't understand.

A sincere, considered and educated performance by David Davies. I hope he puts pressure on them to live up to their stated desire for more debate. Although, the sort of 'debate' that they seemed to be looking for was a one way education in trans ideology, rather an open consultation with the various interest groups involved.

Does anyone have one of these women as their MP?

..and Dawn Butler is totally lacking in intellect.

Bloody hell, the sheer contempt you have for women who disagree with you is mind boggling.

The utter contempt I have for supposedly intelligent women on high public pay in one of the most important public service roles, who have not bothered to do enough reading, thinking and basic due diligence to know what they are talking about, who are not even giving basic thought to women's difficulties with this, and yet are using their public position and voice to blindly follow an ideology and damage other women and children instead of protect them you mean? Yes, that's pretty high.

They aren't disagreeing with me; they haven't even spotted the issues, never mind addressed them. There is nothing in that worthy of respect.

What she said ^