Watch live Government debate on self ID

[Goldenbuzzer]

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/55146a39-db05-4cb8-b256-41ddbc47f2bc

Hope this works. We should all be able to watch the Westminster hall self ID debate today at 9.30 am live.

Not sure if you can go back and watch it later...

It's clearly possible to see your views as feminist and also believe trans women are women. I can't see how, but it is the case and it does me no favours to forget that while thinking about going to talk to Ms Moran about this at a surgery [terror]

I hate having this conflict. I'm also useless at verbal debate. I'd like to agree with her. But I can't and I believe that means something for public policy.

Dawn Butler accused David Davies of being insensitive. When pressed, she said this was because he said people were 'unfortunate' if they had gender dysphoria. She compared this to saying people were unfortunate if they were gay or black.

This stupidity needs to be highlighted again and again. Butler should do some reading to educate herself about gender dysphoria, especially in adolescence. It really isn't something to be celebrated.
Although I can see why she might think that when she only listens to Belcher, Fae & co.

Moran actually said they ignore bodies because they can see into people's souls?

That's insane.

Is that just because she ran out of actual words with which to converse, so just panicked and talked jibber jabber?

Because she can't actually believe that.

Moran did in fact come across as insane, as well as under informed. It was not a good look for either her or the Liberal Democrat’s.

For those of us women who are less talented at seeing into people’s souls and tell in advance whether a man is potentially violent or not, I’d rather not have to be put in that position and make that judgment.

What is wrong with peoples thinking skills.

Also self-ID is being introduced BEFORE the legal changes. The problems with it are already becoming clear. But these idiots are arguing that because these things are already occurring, they are not the fault of the legal changes. I really want to scream. No, they may not be a result of the changes, but the changes are only going to make them worse.

If these things are happening under the current legislation, how can this be seen as a reason to loosen the requirements for obtaining a GRC? If they are happening with people who do not have a GRC, then we need to take a serious look at how the Equality Act is working (or not) to protect women and children.

A situation which allows for male-bodied people to masquerade as women and find ways to use the current legislation to enable them to gain access to vulnerable women and children should not be seen as a reason to loosen the requirements for them to obtain legal status as women.

It's a bit like saying that burglars will find a way to break into your house even if you lock it securely, so the best thing to do is to make the keys to everyone's house available to anyone who asks for one.

Moran did in fact come across as insane, as well as under informed. It was not a good look for either her or the Liberal Democrat’s.

The TRAs in the LibDems are doing some serious damage. I expect it will get worse.

James Kirkup is on the case

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

Thanks James

#NoDebate is Debate
We Have Always Been at War With Eastasia

(Layla's seems like a good sort - what is happening to our decent, bright women?)

This has depressed me utterly. Just when I think we might be getting somewhere I feel I'm being thrown back into a dystopian novel.

Sal Brinton LibDem President recent statement/edict sent to members etc:

"Trans rights are human rights
It has been a very worrying time recently for those who are transgender, those who wish to transition, and those who support anyone going through what is unfortunately still a bureaucratic system laden with red tape.
Across the Atlantic, Trump and his cronies are doing their very best to rewrite the definition of transgender out of existence. An agenda of social cleansing that feeds into his administration’s insular and antagonistic narrative. We may like to think that Trump’s views are in isolation, that his fear of difference does not seep to our shores, but it does.

The experience of many trans people is incredibly tough. A report from Thomas Reuters Foundation last week found that 20% of trans people still get pushed towards conversion therapy, even within our NHS; and another report from Stonewall showed that in the last year, 12% of trans people have attempted suicide.

With the Government’s consultation on the Gender Recognition Act having taken place this year, trans issues have been all over the mainstream media, with opponents viciously attacking some of society’s most vulnerable people. These attacks are shocking, and the perpetrators are often sat behind keyboards, unable or unwilling to see the damage their words can cause.

But in Transgender Awareness Week, I want to focus on the positives, and what we can do to improve the lives of trans people going forward.

Our party, the Liberal Democrats, exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity. Quite literally, that is our mantra, our values and we have always stood beside those facing inequality and attacks.

Transgender and intersex communities are too often marginalised, and many forget that in the fight for equality, trans rights are human rights. We must, and we are, endeavouring to ensure that a vulnerable group of people, are able to live as they are entitled to under our laws.

But those laws need to be more flexible. The ‘spousal veto’, as it has been dubbed by the trans community – a law which enables the spouse of a trans person to veto their transition, needs to be changed, and I really want to believe that the Government will acknowledge this as part of the review of the GRA.

Gender dysphoria is a serious and not a casual condition. For anyone that has been through a transition, or supported another through it, they will see that the system does not meet the needs of those who access it, and that it is long, arduous and expensive.

We need to aspire to make things easier for people to transition if that is what what is right for them. It should be no-one else’s decision and the criteria should not be made so difficult to meet that people end up experiencing mental health issues because they feel despondent, anxious and isolated.

I know that in writing this blog I will be on the receiving end of abuse, but it is nothing compared to the abuse that our transgender friends and colleagues face every day.

This week especially, I want to ask you to support our transgender friends and colleagues, to create a better environment of acceptance and to provide a system that works and meets people’s human needs.

Join our campaign to recognise that Trans Rights are Human Rights, as Liberal Democrats we believe their rights are key to our values and we will do everything possible to spread those values to improve our society, and the world we live in, whoever you are.

Trans Rights are Human Rights
Demand better for Trans people, help us pass GRA reform"

www.libdems.org.uk/trans-rights-are-human-rights

Layla thinks she is setting the record straight does she? With her lies and slogans I think she was doing anything but.

James Kirkup concludes:
(extract)
"Some of them are unhappy about rules allowing male-born people to ‘identify’ as women. They worry that doing so could compromise the female-only spaces that society has provided in recognition of the potential danger that male-bodied people pose to their safety and privacy. They argue that if, as a slogan suggests, ‘trans women are women’ and a trans woman is anyone who says they are a trans woman, then there is nothing to stop a male-born person with full male anatomy and malign intent entering female-only spaces. And that, they say, is a problem, because a male body (especially one guided by male socialisation) is always a potential threat to female bodies, female privacy, and female dignity.

Ms Moran has said she believes trans women are women. Mr Davies has said he believes that a person with a penis cannot be a woman.

Their exchange is here:

David T. C. Davies:

‘I hear what the hon. Lady is saying. May I bluntly ask her whether she would be happy sharing a changing room with somebody who was born male and had a male body?’

Layla Moran:

‘I believe that women are women, so if that person was a trans woman, I absolutely would. I just do not see the issue. As for whether they have a beard, which was one of the hon. Gentleman’s earlier comments, I dare say that some women have beards. There are all sorts of reasons why our bodies react differently to hormones. There are many forms of the human body. I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

And that, in a nutshell, is the transgender debate. Remember, Ms Moran, an intelligent and educated member of Parliament was speaking in a debate about laws that help determine how and whether people with female bodies can chose to separate themselves from people with male bodies. I’ll repeat her key observation again, just for clarity:

‘I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

Truly, Britain is a fortunate nation. This year really has demonstrated how lucky we are in the talents of our elected representatives. But even after the masterful Brexit debate and all the other delights, we didn’t know just how blessed we are. Because it turns out have an MP who has the gift of being able to see people ‘in their soul’.

That must come in handy for all sorts of things, including the sort of case Mr Davies raised: being able to look at someone and gaze deep into their innermost thoughts and essence and understand what sort of person they are and what intentions they have would doubtless allow you to decide whether you were happy to undress in their presence.

But what about those women who do not possess Ms Moran’s remarkable gift, and who might just be a little concerned about the anatomy of the people they share changing rooms and bathrooms with? Women who might not subscribe to the fact-free, anti-evidence superstitious gibberish contained in talk of seeing souls? Women who might just consider material reality, biological fact and thousands of years of accumulated evidence about male violence, committed with male bodies, to actually matter? Women who might be left asking, if even MPs debate laws on sex and gender on the basis of ‘souls’ not bodies, what hope is there?

Sadly, Ms Moran did not say anything about those women who are not fortunate enough to share her special gift. Perhaps she’ll get to the next time MPs debate this issue."
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

I’m actually a little bit in love with James Kirkup at this point

Does Layla have any comprehension of how many people she has bought to #peaktrans as well as #peaklibdem She should really lose her seat over this ‘see into souls’ fiasco.

Only just scanning through this text and the thread, but good god... actually that's not appropriate... elected representatives are seriously discussing issues, any issues I don't care which, after 2 centuries of science in terms of SOULS?????

This worthless excuse for a government and this entire worthless political set up is going back to the dark ages. Women need a separate country that we can leave for, one dominated by actual knowledge, realities and science, and we need it now.

David Davies is not my MP. But I emailed him today to thank him sincerely for standing up for women at the debate this morning. I have just received a personal reply from him, thanking me for my support.
If you haven't already, please email him:

[email protected]

If anyone has time please contact David Davies to say thanks for speaking sense-it can’t be easy speaking up for womens rights when women MPs do the opposite.

Thanks for the email address I've just emailed him.

He really is relentlessly pursuing this for women.

I'm going to struggle to vote for her again but it is a stark choice in this constituency. I don't require my MPs to be my clone on most things - I believe 100 per cent in representative democracy. But it is hard to see how she can represent me effectively if she thinks my body doesn't really exist or have any reality. I need to go and talk to her.

Does Layla have any comprehension of how many people she has bought to #peaktrans

I fear not many people will even be aware a debate occurred. We can only hope tomorrow is a slow news day and other journalists pick up on it.

Great article though by James. Loved the final summary. Beautiful use of the sarcastic voice:

”Women who might just consider material reality, biological fact and thousands of years of accumulated evidence about male violence, committed with male bodies, to actually matter?”

Glinner has started a thread (on Twitter and MN) about Layla Moran and Davies' exchange:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430508-Was-thinking-very-much-of-you-lot

I fear not many people will even be aware a debate occurred.

Maybe not, but that ‘souls’ remark will be used to kill her political career at an opportune moment.

Could Layla work with the priso service to advise them which dicky sex offenders looking to bunk in with the women have "female souls" and which don't?

That would be super useful.

(I would suggest that no person with a dick that has used it to rape has a "female soul" but what do I know!)

Layla - James and David own you with your nonsense magical thinking and sight 😂

Layla knew deep down what she was doing, she tweeted about a Tory being taken advantage of then making a laughing stock of himself.

I have emailed him just now - I'm grateful that he has stood up to be counted in the face of utter stupidity.
Fucking souls
Jesus wept