Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

grasspigeons

Excellent point. It can place limitations on where you go and when. Lots of forward planning required sometimes. Yes we do this to a certain extent as mum’s anyway, but it adds yet another layer.

This is a problem. I think that floor to ceiling cubicles might turn out to be less safe (it is possible to pull someone inside and lock the door).

A separate toilet for boys would be good but will never happen. I am quite sure that the answer is not to make all toilets unisex.

I feel nervous about sending tween boys off to the men's. But after a while they (rightly) no longer want to go into the women's, so what can you do if there is no man available to go in with them?

If we put something in place to safeguard 9 year olds, how do you put in place something to safeguard 13 year old males, 19 year old males?

Unless we’re saying all young males should be chaperoned at all times.

But the problem is that male children do become men. It's a grey area when they are seen to be a threat by other women. But it's not for feminists to sort out.

Sure. A problem that disproportionately worries mothers, especially single ones, isn't a feminist issue.
And an 8yo is not a man yet.
No one is asking every single feminist to find an immediate solution, but it would be nice for us mothers with male children to be able to talk about what we can do about male violence without someone repeatedly posting 'not my problem'.

I do see it as a feminist issue - not in the idea it's my job to sort out the menz, but it's another thing that limits lots of women. I'm in some charge of two young boys so have to pick places where I am comfortable for them to go to the loo or get changed on their own.
This.

Women exchange tips on how to try to prevent their children from being the victims of male violence.

I still take my 8yo in with me, luckily he's the size of a 6yo. I think actually the only answer is on-site risk assessment. Sometimes you have to grit your teeth and send them in/loiter by the door. Other times you have to say nope, tough shit, they are going to have to come in the ladies. In a busy central London station, for eg, there is not a chance I'll send an under-11 boy alone into the men's. A quiet restaurant or a cafe, different judgement.

And ffs about 'this isn't a feminist issue'. It certainly isn't a live issue for fathers out and about, because they can just take their sons in with them. So that leaves...yes, mothers. I'd certainly like to be able to talk about how male violence affects sons without some officious sod appointing themselves the judge and jury of an approved list of feminist topics, cheers very much. Reporting the thread is ludicrous and offensive. Get over yourself.

If we put something in place to safeguard 9 year olds, how do you put in place something to safeguard 13 year old males
Um. Its pretty much the same? I don't know what your experience with 13 year old boys is but they are not all 6 ft and shaving! Lots of them are 5 ft and slight and still very vulnerable.
And a 19 year old is an adult so not relevant.

I have no idea what the solution is.

But I do have experience of living in a world that pretends male violence isn't a problem.

I've been a (radical) feminist for 20 years so being shrieked at by someone who claims I'm conflating being GC with feminism and I don't really know what I'm talking about is tiresome.

Most feminists are aware that general society (we can use 'the rest of MN' as an example of general society) don't want to name and discuss the problem of male violence.

I'm actually sickened by the posters who tried to shut this thread down.

Lots of them are 5 ft and slight and still very vulnerable.
That's what I've been thinking, reading this thread - 8yo is the usual cut-off at pools with separate-sex changing rooms, for example, and yet a good handful of the Y5 & Y6s I work with are very vulnerable kids. Still really little boys, emotionally speaking, and I would be concerned at sending them off alone. Even DD13's friend who was round today - she's half a foot taller than him and would make mincemeat of him in the dojo (as could I). He wouldn't stand a chance if attacked by someone bigger, and although his parents seem to give him a long leash, I was worried about him getting home.

I don't have boys myself but grasspigeons point is concerning - it's another form of the "bladder leash" for mothers, trying to find somewhere safe for your tween boy to pee. That makes it a feminist issue for me because at that point you can clearly see that toilet access is designed for lone men popping in for a pee, with women/disabled/family access a distant second in the design.

I think the floor-to-ceiling cubicles with internal sinks on a full-view (or with CCTV) corridor are probably the best bet for this. A solution to the child locking themselves in scenario could be found, I think - a key that unlocks from the outside lodged with the manager, perhaps?

A few random thoughts:

Most men I think are more than willing to ensure young boys are safe in toilets/changing facilities. They unfortunately would be reluctant to offer for fear of being labelled a pervert.

A solution might be for us mum's with sons, when out with our partners, step up and make the offer. Most of us have been in the situation ourselves. Just a casual "Hey my partner's about to take my boys in, if you like he can keep an eye out for your son too".

It takes a village etc.

So: why can't the general run of men, all those men, we are constantly told most men are not paedos or abusers or misogynists - why can't alll those men sort out safe spaces for young boys?

Magical thinking has nothing to do with unicorns, by the way.

But being convinced that your sons can't be harmed by the very people you fear will harm your daughter is a good example of it.

There’s a great difference in the likelihood of being an abuser at 13 and one at 9, so the safeguarding issues in terms of children being in spaces together are different depending on the ages.

Teenage boys have very high offending rates compared to the general population. Largely you’re attempting to protect them from each other.

Its not magical thinking, its a risk assessment.

Most men are not predators.
Not being predatory, they don't go into the women's toilets.
The ones that do go into the women's toilets flag themselves as an exceptionally high risk.

Thats how the first layer of safeguarding works in women only spaces. Its not unfair to boys, it has no impact on them. It does not make them any more or less safe.

Boys are not made unsafe by women’s spaces.

Sorry, I just had to comment. Are there recorded cases of boys being assaulted in men's toilets?

I understand the anxiety, but all the cases of sexual abuse of boys seem to the result of grooming by figures in authority.

And even women's toilets, the main deserve is for privacy and the ability to tell any creep to leave.

But being convinced that your sons can't be harmed by the very people you fear will harm your daughter is a good example of it
First up girls are more likely the victims.

And secondly how's it any different to the arguments that people bring their boys into girls spaces as the men's is so unsafe yet the same boys you argue are safe to be in the girls room are the same ones you are keeping your kid from.

You cabt have it both ways.

Are there recorded cases of boys being assaulted in men's toilets?

Yep, as a quick google will confirm. 3 in Manchester in the last five years alone (an 11yr old, 12yr old and 14year old, all raped by adult men).

“Sorry, I just had to comment. Are there recorded cases of boys being assaulted in men's toilets“

Yes.

Icantmakeanomelette. What do you think should be done to protect boys in male spaces?

Growing up I remember as a child being allowed to go to the public toilets in the town centre by myself as long as I waited outside until a woman went in and I went in with her but my brother was only allowed to go if my father went with him. A rare instance of being allowed more freedom because female (only instance come to think of it).

As a mother of now grown up boys They were probably about 16 before I stopped reminding them to have a wee before going out. They'd need to use the loo a lot less often than me which helps. If felt unsafe then I encouraged to go behind bushes (which they hated). I sent them both together, waited outside. We were lucky and no problems.

I almost never took them shopping,( shopping centre toilets seem to be a particular problem for predators targeting boys).

I don't think turning all toilets uni-sex would make more people safer. It would probably make it a little safer for tween boys and low teen boys but at too big a sacrifice.

It's a difficult quandary for mothers of boys. I have 3 sons none of whom wanted to use the Ladies with me from being about 8/9.

Luckily it's fairly rare that I've only had one of them with me so a lot of the time if one wanted to go I would send them in a pair or a trio and remind them to look out for each other which gives some peace of mind.

On the odd occasion where it's only one of them I've generally applied the hanging by the door and being audible if it's facilities I'm concerned about.

I'm generally less worried in very large, busy facilities like motorway services where streams of people are in and out. It's places where they are likely to end up being alone with one or two men that bother me more. No idea what the actual statistical risks for both scenarios are but that's just my perception.

Managing risk for children is difficult in a lot of situations. Young boys and toilets is something that concerns me sometimes but on balance I probably worry more about them crossing roads, doing daft stuff with mates that might lead to injury etc...

That said I do recognise it only takes being in the wrong place at the wrong time for something to happen which is why we worry about it.

I don't think boys older than six should be allowed in women's toilets and changing rooms, for the safety and comfort of both women and girls. I've seen young boys peek under toilet and shower doors and I've heard stories of them telling other children at school that they saw classmates' 'boobies' (and their mothers') and also experienced young girls from 6 onwards not wanting to go swimming because of boys in women's rooms.

I don't know what the solution is, but is not unisex changing villages that endanger women or expecting women and girls to 'budge up' and accommodate boys.

More fathers should do the work of taking children out and boys should be told how to keep safe like girls are. Maybe give then a panic whistle? In any case, girls are taught to be wary from a young age - why shouldn't boys be taught the same?

In any case, girls are taught to be wary from a young age - why shouldn't boys be taught the same?

I agree, most women and girls have to assess a situation before they use the loo or changing rooms, so boys can learn the skill too.

There are countless male architects and planners who would want to make theses areas safe for boys. Maybe they are as safe as the can be?