Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

Despite the fact that, in a school year with birthdays running from September to August, the majority of children are unlikely to have been born in September.

This is an interesting thing to think about, for several reasons.

• I think male on male and male on male child sexual violence is still massively under-reported. And it’s easier for male predators to hide, dismiss concerns, maintain an environment in which they can flourish if they can maintain something which is in all likelihood probably a fiction, namely, that a male person is more likely to have his life severely negatively impacted by a false accusation of sexual assault by a female/child than have his life severely negatively impacted by being sexually assaulted by a male. Control different groups of people with different fears. It’s divide and rule 101.

• Educating men into stepping up and being responsible people who look out for unaccompanied children in male toilets etc is great. And one of the barriers to that is the men who would be most willing to do it are most sensitive to that being misconstrued (see false accusation fear myth- one of the reasons it’s so pernicious). Out recently with a male friend. Saw a woman a bit worse for wear slumped over wall early evening- I went up, asked if she was ok, did she need help/a taxi etc. She said she was ok, she was waiting for her brother to pick her up. We waited til he did at a wee bit of a distance, chatting. My friend said thank you to me for doing that, and also said he wouldn’t have Ben able to do that on his own, as he wouldn’t want her to feel threatened.

• it could be a way to get safe design firmly on the agenda- more individual toilets with sinks and a door to the main thoroughfare not off down a corridor, better sight lines, better placement of cubicles vs urinals in male toilets (maybe abandon urinals altogether)

Further to my first point, this culture of shaming, discrediting, minimising and dismissing sexual assault victims harms women and men. It’s a culture where predators can flourish.

don't think I have at all. I have not seen girls upset by the presence of young boys, with their mum, using the ladies toilets, ever. I very much doubt that it even registers*

Oh well if you haven't seen it it does not happen @@. Of course. Who cares about women and girls anyway?

Who cares about women and girls anyway?

Or little boys too it seems.

I don't think you even see the girls Weezol. Peopledocare about boys, button tat the expense of women and girls.

Not Weezol!

I don't think you even see the girls

Why? Because I object to posters on here saying that little boys (aged over 6 as one person said) need to suck it up to learn how hard it is for women and girls?

What I don't agree with is that the safety of little boys is considered lower priority than the privacy of an adult. Actually I can't understand how the safety of any child is lower priority than the privacy of any adult.

These threads are frequently frustrating, because over and over again people talk about it as if it's girls v boys and ignore the fact that this is a problem for adult women, because it's mothers who have to send their differently-sexed children into the men's toilets, changing rooms etc.

Obviously the answer is not to just bring them into the girls' ones, but that still leaves the problem unsolved for those mothers, who, remember are women. It has to be OK for us to ask this as a question and brainstorm solutions without people making out that we're somehow helping the enemy in worrying about male children.

Men do not have this problem, as when they are out with their opposite-sexed children, the toilets they are sending their children into alone are the ladies toilets, which are relatively safer.

The idea of redesigning men's toilets is interesting and is one of the few new ideas I've seen. It is nice to see that this thread has been slightly different in not just being over and over again people arguing that it's somehow not women's problem, when it is, in fact, precisely a problem for women, because it's mothers out and about with sons who face this issue frequently.

It doesn't do me any good as a parent to shrug my shoulders when I'm out and about and say "about time men stepped up to solve this problem" (as if, ludicrously, all boy children belong to men and all girl children to women) - in the moment, when I'm out with sons of a certain age, it's a problem for me, a woman. Discussing possible solutions is a legitimate use of time for women and feminists in particular.

Excellent post ladksjaas.

Thanks ladksjass, that’s very well put.

I agree too. That said, I think some of the frustration comes because it is presented as solely a woman's problem and that men shouldn't have to do anything. And I think it's a problem that both sexes need to work on together.

That said, I think some of the frustration comes because it is presented as solely a woman's problem and that men shouldn't have to do anything.

But is it presented as such? I have only one son, 7, and my partner, thankfully, splits reponsibilities with me at least 50:50 (including parental leave), him often taking on more responsibilities. Since infancy always does the toilet stuff when we are all out together (sure changed more diapers than me, including on flights and in trains).

All that does not change the fact that I have the problem when I am out with my son alone, and it clearly limits me, a woman.

So, from my point of view, those 'frustrated' people seem to project something into the issue - namely the problem of absent Dads - that is not intrinsically linked to the issue. And that frustrates me. Particularly when their 'feminist' conclusion for my particular situation boils down to Dad doing the cool sport stuff out with kid on Saturday, while I can do the laundry and the grocery, instead of the other way round.

Yes! Totally agree deepwater and ladksjaas. And given that the vast majority of lone parent families are led by women I'd say it's very much a women's issue, as well as as child safety one.

Exactly both Bernard and deepwater. I am in a similar situation to deepwater - dh has always been very hands on and still is but this will make no difference next yr when I am out and about with my son once he no longer allowed in the ladies but it’s still not safe/sensible for DS to wait for me or go in by himself.

Yep, ladksjaas summed up why I didn’t just hide this thread despite the unpleasantness earlier on.

Protecting women’s spaces concerns me, and I really value the honest debate that goes on on MN. But my lived reality is that I am the mother of a just-turned 8 yo boy, who has SN which make him especially vulnerable, and who I feel just as protective over as I do my daughter.

Mrsfrumble surely your son is entitled to use disabled facilities? I am increasingly seeing signs on disabled loos reminding the public that not all disabilities are visible?

I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable about that either Repeal, given that accessible toilets are often a very stretched resource as it is, with them usually being shared by parents with babies etc.

DS’s SN are mild in the grand scheme of things (high-functioning autism and ADHD); they don’t affect his toiletting and he’s always coped with noisy hand dryers, queues and the usual things that can make public toilets difficult for people with ASD. But in the context of this discussion they do have an impact because of how they affect his social communication skills and executive functioning. I feel his ability to judge potential “threats” and unsafe situations is lower than a NT child of his age. Obviously he still needs to learn and I have to walk the fine line between teaching him to stay safe and unnecessarily scaring him. As I’ve said, he’s keen to use the gents by himself when DH is not with us, or wait outside while DD and I use the ladies, so I tend to let him. It does make me uncomfortable though.