Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

I've seen young boys peek under toilet and shower doors and I've heard stories of them telling other children at school that they saw classmates' 'boobies' (and their mothers') and also experienced young girls from 6 onwards not wanting to go swimming because of boys in women's rooms

When i was at school the boys used to peer through a hole in the wood in the sheds that were the pool changing rooms.

Thing is this is our life. Our whole life. Assessing and limiting what we do and where we go.

Yet it's unreasonable for a short period of time for boys to have to come up with a temporary solution. There will be a million reasons why it's not possible to use onesies or big towels or get the dad to do one thing or teach their kids to get dressed themselves so they can use a cubicle. Or god forbid behave for two mins so they cab stand still and wait for their sister and mum to emerge from the women's locker room.

Why is something that we are expected to do our whole lives somehow not good enough for boys.

There's no way in Hell I would have been sending my 6 year old into the men's on his own. A 6 year old boy is just as vulnerable as a girl. They are really little at 6!
If a 4 year old peeks and says "boobies" should they be sent off to the men's alone too?

Why is something that we are expected to do our whole lives somehow not good enough for boys

Totally agree. Massive double standards.

My 8 year old, almost 9, generally uses the men's toilets. I sometimes loiter outside, depends where we are. But if he's not out reasonably quickly then I make my presence known at the door. His dad isn't here anymore so going in with him isn't an option.

Totally agree. Massive double standards

People often freak at the idea of dads taking their dds into men's toilets/changing room incase they accidently see a glimpse of penis ( as if the dad can't just steer the kid away from the urinals . Not that you could see without peering anyway)

So girls , the same age as all these boys who can't be trusted to stand still and not muck about when getting changed or not jump in the pool, are in fact able to do these things . They have to learn to do these things because no one wants them in the men's.

So why can't the boys learn? There's not some magic fairy dust that gets sprinkled over them in the hospital that means they are more capable of behaving. Stop expecting less of your boys

And ultimately the "luxury" of women's spaces to fall back on, is pretty soon mot going to exist. They will become full of men with a fetish. You boys will be safer in the men's. So you need to get working on that. Working on the obstacles you place in the way if using the men's facilities.

We have the experience and deal with this issue on a fairly regular basis. We've had no choice.

If you want to safe guard your boys you need to start teaching them what we have taught our girls

I can't relate to any of that
I was never trained to be wary, as a girl. I think my dad said to me and my bothers once "don't go down that path when it's dark" but that's about it! I grew up with several brothers (a couple of them were propositioned in public toilets as children actually ) and played in mixed groups, including going swimming and changing altogether.
Panic whistle?? Wtf?!
I don't expect boys to muck about (although sometimes they do-they're kid's, so I'm not particularly surprised when girls muck about either (also kids).
I care about men in women's spaces but I refuse to demonise little boys.
What kind of boys do some of you know?
My son would be WAY more worried at 6/8/10 about anyone seeing for him changing or weeing than peeking at other people. I walked a 13 year old boy home the other night, because it was nearly 8 pm and he was nervous. I know some young boys are right little bastards, but for the most part they are vulnerable children.

I completely agree re the need to ensure young boys behave appropriately when they are accompanying female relatives in the ladies. I never allowed my boys to behave badly, I was aware they were there effectively on an honour system.

Love how MNs always say my kid woudnt do XYZ etc

But these are your children that you are trying to protect them from... your sons peering through gaps in walls, your kids pulling trousers down, making fun of girls bras etc

Girls don't need teaching that kuch to be wary they figure it out pretty damn quick.

Panic whistle?? Wtf?!

I carry a panic whistle and have done since I was a teen. They were given away on reclaim the night marches in the 80s. Yeah. wtf. I carry it in my hand as I walk home at night.

Other than that, lucky you Bernard. Your post reads like blissful ignorance though because women's and girls' wariness is in response to real issues of violation, assault and violence.

Even if your boys are angels that does not detract from this.

God Giles. It really isn't, but ok
I'm not saying my son's an angel ( far from) But I know that at 6 or 7 he was too busy trying to make sure noone saw his pants to "peer through gaps in walls".
I don't think after 11 boys and girls should share, but before that they are little kids ffs.

I'm not remotely ignorant Spartacus, nor blissful! My "WTF" was about people saying yeah send the little boys into the mens, give them a panic whistle if need be WE have to learn".
I have had my fair share of abuse/ assault by men. I have no issue with what YOU do to make yourself safer. I just don't think little boys are predators, and I do think they deserve as much protection as little girls.
Which is what we were talking about, I think?

No one's said biys don't need protecting.

But over the age of 8 which is the cut off in toilets and changing rooms then you have to figure out a way of doing so which doesn't intrude on the comfort and safety of women and girls.

I know plenty of 10 and 11 year olds who are well over 5 ft , bigger than their mums and expecting girls to change infromt of their male classmates is not on.

I have had my fair share of abuse/ assault by men. I have no issue with what YOU do to make yourself safer. I just don't think little boys are predators, and I do think they deserve as much protection as little girls

Except that many little boys learn damn quick and damn young that they are predators and little girls are their targets - as said in my initial post. Even when I was at school they used to try and see in the doors to changing rooms and I recall a classmate who strated to breast bud early being the target of all sorts of antics.

Why not send them to the men's with a whistle they can blow if they feel unsafe? I've carried one for years.

But of course, you are immune to all of that, whereas at the same time your boys face immense risks.

On most occasions, my DS went in public loos with his dad. When very young, he came with me into the Ladies. When loos seem a bit deserted I have actually taken him into the gents to a cubicle and to check no one loitering in there. But yes, sometimes it’s not ideal, I agree.

As a man, it wouldnt cause me a thought if a woman accompanied her young son into a male toilet cubicle.
Expanding the debate a little,what happens in school changing rooms these days? When i was at school in the late 70s/early 80's it was accepted practice after games/pe sessions that all the lads went into the communal steamy showers buck naked to shower off.

11 is probably getting to the crossover point but 8-10yos are still small boys, not potential sexual predators. A woman not wanting a 9yo in the changing rooms doesn't come above the safety of small boys alone in the men's. It isn't remotely the same as the GC case for women only spaces which is based on the threat of adult males to women's safety. No 9yo is a threat. Obviously noone should be shouting boobies in the changing room but as someone said, a 4yo could do that. My 8yo has no more sense of women's bodies as sexual than he did at 2.

But I agree there's a crossover point which will depend on the child, somewhere between 9 and 11. Most pools etc agree as they usually have 8 or 9 as the limit.

Coyrse none yr olds can he a threat kids as young as 6 are abusing their class mates

As for a 10/11 year old on the changing room are you serious?

Over a third of school girls are harassed..And kids start secondary at 11!

As for a 10/11 year old on the changing room are you serious

Because women's and girls' feelings and safety count for NOTHING.

No one wants to admit it.

But kids are a threat to other kids.

It was a 7 yr old who.pulled my dds pants down.

It was a 6 /7 is old who poked dd in the chest and went "boobies"

Ok, 10 is pushing it. But 9 is the limit for at least one local pool so I'm hardly well out of the bounds of current practice. As for a 6yo being a sexual threat, well why not go the whole hog and let our 3yos go into the men's alone You are seriously suggesting that all 6yo boys be treated as potential sexual predators, as opposed to the tiny children that they are?

But over the age of 8 which is the cut off in toilets and changing rooms then you have to figure out a way of doing so which doesn't intrude on the comfort and safety of women and girls.
Yes, and I have explained up thread how I do that.

Spartacus, honestly you are sounding a bit bonkers. I'm not "immune" to danger, nor at boys at "immense risk" but they are, as small children, at some risk, yes.
Anyway I got to work..

But kids are a threat to other kids

Absolutely. And when I complained to a mother whose boy had just peered under my toilet door she just told me that 'that's what children do' - apparently I should just suck it up and hold any discomfort.

And those behaviours are terrible but there comes a point when you need to weigh up relative risk, and a 6yo alone in the men's changing room, surely to God, is more at risk than he could possibly pose in the women's.

In the UK, AFAIK, there is no law preventing a man using a woman's toilet or vice versa.
We only maintain these rules because of social niceties, habit, manners, custom, etc etc

So in theory, hardly ideal I know, and in the case of toilets only, a woman could take an older boy into the male toilets.

I generally wait outside and often have opened the door to look in and check on my DS.

Also, dynamic risk assessment about place

I talk to my son about what's right and wrong, the pants rule, to trust instincts, we ask "what would you do in this situation?" questions and he learns a martial art.

He only ever uses a cubicle.

Nowadays he probably has his phone with him too 🤢 but if he needed help, he could use that.