Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

This is a good question. The rise of uni sex toilets (as in cubicles with hand basins in them) as part of the trans rights movement has actually been helpful for me. DS is nearly 8 and I feel extremely uncomfortable about sending him alone into the gents.

I have a DS and DD. DS (9) no longer wants to come into the ladies and I understand that.

We do urgently need men to step up on safeguarding and doing something about male violence. It’s not happening though

The likelihood of a male in a male changing room being there for any kind of nefarious purpose is low as most males will be using them to get changed etc. I always tell my children (M and F) to listen to their gut and leave if something seems wrong, I think that would suffice.

Meanwhile girls are being told not to listen to their gut but to be nice instead

Teach children to be safe, not nice or polite or compliant. Teach them to trust their instinct, and to shout out as soon as they need you. Get them to practice at home to help overcome freezing.

Thanks for replies.

I can't see that the ones that talk about teaching children how to be safe specifically safeguard boys, though, as these are the same messages I give me daughters.

So I'm back to wondering how little boys - specifically - are safeguarded whilst alone in spaces full of males.

So I'm back to wondering how little boys - specifically - are safeguarded whilst alone in spaces full of males.

It's probably not when they're in spaces "full of males" that they're unsafe. It's when they're alone with one (or two who have ill-intent together).

It's a good question OP. The same problem is behind concerns about safeguarding for girls of course - the fact that men as a class are potentially dangerous. How the hell we deal with that one I can't imagine, particularly at a time when porn, fetishes & male entitlement are in plain sight. I think UpstartCrow has got the right idea but it's tragic that we need to raise kids to be in a permanent state of alert.

Hmmm, isnt the safeguarding issue around girls in changing rooms with male bodied people that we are teaching them we must overcome their intuitive discomfort about being in same sex spaces; and that women must accept that male bodied people are allowed to cross those boundaries. It isn't the male bodied person there that they are necessarily vulnerable to, but that the way they have been taught to accept boundary violation by male bodied people.

I used to wait at the door. Or as one child was disabled would use disabled toilet together. I was always wary. I would sometimes ask for a guys help to see what he was up to. Very relieved now as huge teenager.

I'm hearing an argument that male toilets are safe spaces for little boys as they won't be used to prey on children.

But that is the exact opposite of the argument that predatory men will use whatever means they can to access vulnerable people.

I am honestly not being goady, I have daughters as I've already stated, so I've never had cause to think about how I might feel about my child being alone in a space with men.

Until now. The more I read about how self-ID increases dangers to females the more I worry about how boys must be at risk.

"Hmmm, isnt the safeguarding issue around girls in changing rooms with male bodied people that we are teaching them we must overcome their intuitive discomfort about being in same sex spaces; and that women must accept that male bodied people are allowed to cross those boundaries. It isn't the male bodied person there that they are necessarily vulnerable to, but that the way they have been taught to accept boundary violation by male bodied people."

I don't like this argument at all. I feel it implies that girls "let" themselves be assaulted. I've been sexually assaulted many times and each time it was because someone bigger and stronger than me suprised and overpowered me. I don't like the suggestion that I could have saved myself if only I'd have been better at stating my boundaries.

Although, outself I'm going to contradict myself now. I do agree with you that girls boundaries are important and that self ID weakens boundaries.

I suppose - as a rape survivor - I hate the "no means no" rhetoric. I didn't get a chance to say "no".

I have worried more about my son when he was too old to accompany me to the ladies loos than my partner ever did when he had to let my daughter go to ladies loos on her own.

I've spent some fretful minutes over the years hanging around by the door of men's loos waiting for him.

For that reason, I can see some upsides to third spaces which are mixed sex. But my red line is that there must still be single sex provision too.

Male sexual predators will target women but also children of both sexes so it's a legitimate concern IMO.

I'm hearing an argument that male toilets are safe spaces for little boys as they won't be used to prey on children.

No, you're hearing the argument that little boys will be surrounded by physically large people, the vast majority whom are in the room because that is the designated place for males to pee. And frankly we all gotta go.

What we have all tiptoed around saying is that if a male has decided he must use a female space, when a perfectly good space is already available to him.. he is, if not a predator, someone who has serious issues with females having boundaries. So you're talking about a much larger percentage of the males in the female space being wronguns compared to male spaces.

On a personal note I don't think boys are safe alone in men's areas. I will let my boys stay with me as long as I can and then make a very loud presence outside men's toilets as they get older.

Frumpy, you haven't answered how boys are safeguarded in male toilets.

A quick google of "boys Mcdonalds toilet" will show you that there is no magical forcefield protecting boys in these spaces.

I think the solution would be Men stepping up, as a class and as individuals. Fathers take their sons into the Male changing rooms in the same way that women take their daughters into the women’s with them. All Men could start looking out for all unattended children in the same way that women do.

I don't need anyone to convince me why self ID is a bad thing - that's already my position.

What I am interested in, alongside this, is how safeguard male children.

I'm hearing an argument that male toilets are safe spaces for little boys as they won't be used to prey on children.
I'm going to respond in good faith.
The argument is that male spaces are f9r males. The majority of males are safe decent men who are just there to change. Those safe, decent men will also act as a deterrent to predatory men, so male children should be safe.
Female spaces are for females so any male accessing those has some kind of motive they are putting ahead of females need for their own space. It could be the males desire to be recognised as a woman. Or it could be a sexually motivated desire to access vulnerable women (voyeurism more likely than assault). This makes it a very different scenario

Sorry, I’m now a little pissed off. This whole ‘problem’ is because we’re working on the assumption that childcare is ‘women’s work’ and thus children both male and female will be with a female carer. WTF are these boys fathers? Why aren’t they taking them to the loo?

My son has been using male toilets and changing rooms since he was 6. But I always made sure that I could be nearby and they were busy. Think more debenhams on a Saturday afternoon than one in a park after dark.

But what is the alternative, some men are vulnerable into adulthood, does that mean they should be in the ladies?

There are very good reasons to worry about young boys in toilets. Not least some are used for sex. And single cubicle 'family' type toilets and changing rooms are great for safety. But that is an argument for more provision, not changing single sex to mixed.

"The argument is that male spaces are f9r males. The majority of males are safe decent men who are just there to change. Those safe, decent men will also act as a deterrent to predatory men, so male children should be safe"

And how are boys safeguarded when they come across the minority who aren't those things?

Mine is with his Dad or other male relative.

RepealtheGRA Sun 18-Nov-18 20:22:03
Sorry, I’m now a little pissed off. This whole ‘problem’ is because we’re working on the assumption that childcare is ‘women’s work’ and thus children both male and female will be with a female carer. WTF are these boys fathers? Why aren’t they taking them to the loo?

I dpn't take my DDs to the toilet, they go without me (or DH)).