Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

Teach them not to wander off.
Of course because 6 year olds always do exactly as you tell them. The mens and ladies toilets aren't even always next door to each other - we've been to places where they are around the corner, on opposite sides of a building or a car park etc. It just is not easy to simply send a small child off on their own.

What we could do with is someone in government (who actually has a spine) to do a safeguarding review of public toilet access and find out what, if anything, works. They're a place where all of us are vulnerable because we are out of view and often alone - children of either sex and women to predatory men in the main; and men to male violence (think about attacks on vulnerable men, eg homeless or disabled, and also it's out of sight to indulge in a little homophobic or racist bashing).

Surely the government could find a few bob for a study. They could happily then levy fines on businesses who don't comply.

This is something I have been worrying about for a while. DS is 7 - an only child and immature for his age. He won’t be able to go in with a sibling. There is no pattern to what we do - DH has always taken his turn if we are out together but sometimes it is just me and DS.

At the moment all the swimming pools that we go to have family changing. Sometimes he has darted into the men’s when it has just been us 2 and I panic.

I have shown him the pants vid a few times already but I will have to start planning trips a bit better in terms of possible toilet usage and/or using the tips described here.

It is most def a feminist issue when it can curtail where me and DS can go together and some of the solutions on here unbelievably have been find a man to help. WTF?!

Of course because 6 year olds always do exactly as you tell them. The mens and ladies toilets aren't even always next door to each other - we've been to places where they are around the corner, on opposite sides of a building or a car park etc. It just is not easy to simply send a small child off on their own

A six yr old would be ok in with the parents. This is mainly about older kids 8+
However it does prove my earlier point to am extent. Dads either don't or won't take their dds even at a really young age into the men's. So early on girls are expected to go to the ladies on their own. Now leaving aside the safety issue for a second. It still shows that we expect girls to be sensible and not wander off etc and to be more capable at a much earlier age than we do boys.

Now I am as guilty as anyone on this thread in taking over dealing with stuff where this would be an issue to avoid do having to deal with it. Although there have still been many occasions where he has had to.

It's interesting, at least to me how the refusal of husbands/male partners to take their dds into the men's with them, has resulted in girls having to learn to stay still. Yet people will excuse bringing in 9 and 10 yr olds (in general there r many threads on this) because they can't he trusted. It's an interesting if infuriating double standard.

As it stands right now there are few options. I certainly see the temptation to start using men's facilities BUT I obviously strongly feel they deserve privacy and dignity to so I don't feel that's an answer either

I Do wonder what will happen when the safety fall back of the women's is no longer an option. It leaves us permanently in this position as opposed to mum's of boys having to navigate it for a shorter period of time.

And obviously women still have huge restrictions on them even with dds I'm many circumstances cos even at the older ages the arrangement may still mean we at least follow them to the door. Toilets on a separate level for instance, or through multiple doors and down corridors

over so sorry about your ds.

I do wish men would see this as a problem and step up and deal with it. And I fully agree that they just opt out all the time whether we like to admit it or not Sadly without their input we will all be dead and buried before it's even thought about

I don’t send any of my children in alone to a loo or changing room. My eldest son is 11. I will literally go in with them and stand outside the stall door, and supervise while they hand wash. I know someone who’s son was propositioned by some weirdo in a public loo while she waited outside for him. She had felt uneasy allowing him in alone, but he was embarrassed to use the ladies with her. Luckily he ran out right away even though he didn’t really understand what had been said to him, he just knew it was something dirty. I’ve heard a few other scary real life attempts at abuse going on in toilets. They are closed off from view and this is exploited by abusers. It’s also why I can’t agree with mixed sex loos, I don’t want to be in a confined space with men I don’t know hidden from general view- I just don’t feel safe. At the moment I think any public loo or changing room isn’t safe for my children at their age. I will obvs get to the point where I have to allow them to go in alone- I’d go with the poster above and say coach them at home to work on instinct.

It still shows that we expect girls to be sensible and not wander off etc and to be more capable at a much earlier age than we do boys

It really doesn’t - I only have a son so I can’t practise on both sexes but expecting him to be sensible is completely irrelevant to whether I like him being out of my sight in the toilet, as opposed to being with him if he were a girl, in the ladies’ toilet.

What I meant was when Dds are out with their dads , dads often refuse to take them into the men's with them.

So girls are expected to wait outside while dads go to the toilet if they beat them out. Yet boys much older can not apparently be trusted to wait outside for their mums.

It's something I find very strange

The obvious solution is female toilets for girls, women and young boys only and gender neutral toilets for everyone. At least then women could legitimately accompany their older but still vulnerable boys to toilet.

What I meant was when Dds are out with their dads , dads often refuse to take them into the men's with them.

Oh, sorry, yes, I see. I wonder if it’s because of the urinals? I remember going to the men’s with my dad as a little girl but as I had a sister we started going to the ladies loos together at around 7 or 8. I don’t remember much about the men’s as a result! If men’s toilets were redesigned to put the urinals less front and centre that would probably help, in an ideal world.

The obvious solution is female toilets for girls, women and young boys only and gender neutral toilets for everyone.

I don’t see why the men shouldn’t have their own toilet too (though politically the colonisation of the ladies by TRAs for trans women has been ridiculous and I think all companies which make the ladies ‘gender neutral’ should do the same with the men’s and see how they like it).

Toilets already are gender neutral..sorry to nitpick, but they are divided by sex!
I wouldn't want all toilets to be mixed sex-mens bogs stink.I like the idea of children's toilets though.

I have never met a dad that refused to take his son to the men's toilets? I don't get that.

Yet people will excuse bringing in 9 and 10 yr olds (in general there r many threads on this) because they can't he trusted. It's an interesting if infuriating double standard

As said up-thread on many occasions, I've seen boys running wild in women's changerooms while small girls attempt towel changes or try to change in the toilet or shower cubicles. I do know of girls who refuse to go swimming especially when classmates (boys) will be in the changeroom at the same time. It's not fair on girls. Our pool has family changerooms but apparently they are not popular (I've only ever seen fathers and daughters use them) because it takes longer to shower the children when there is only one shower. Actually, this is another bugbear - of the six showers often there are two - three children from the same family in three separate showers, not just sluicing off but doing the whole shower and hair wash routine while others wait...

scipio

I don't think you really see much with urinals anyway Do you?

Certainly nothing that couldbt be avoided by treating it as you do when you walk past the toy shop using your hands as blinkers.

Unless they deliberately turn round an helicopter at you anyway.

I think more often than not it's an excuse tbh

So girls are expected to wait outside while dads go to the toilet if they beat them out. Yet boys much older can not apparently be trusted to wait outside for their mums.

DS (7) struggles to follow instructions. However you do it, whatever you say, tone of voice, bribery. He is innately set to push every boundary there is going. I turned my back to tie my shoe lace last week, he tried to dive inside a locker at the pool even though I had just told him to stay right there next to me, do not move etc. There is no way I could go to the toilet and ask him to stand outside and expect that he would be there when I get back. I am not saying I would take him in with me but how do I manage if I cannot go to the toilet - pelvic floor is not great

Giles I think you’re probably right about not seeing much, but I feel like women could more easily monitor a child from close to the doorway if the urinals weren’t right there (it’s the open entryway public ones I’m thinking of especially) and it would maybe make dads feel more comfortable taking daughters in (though as you say, if it’s an excuse it won’t make any difference to them).

On the subject of urinals, I’ve always wondered if men wouldn’t rather have just cubicles anyway. I have a recurring anxiety dream about having to go to the toilet in a busy set of loos with no door on the cubicle so urinals seem awful to me! No idea what else that says about my psyche though!

I have also wondered if anyone has picked apart the reason for the wait for the ladies’ toilets - I think women probably have to go the toilet more (pelvic floor, periods etc), take children more which takes longer, have to change sanitary protection etc, and that urinals speed up the process (and less handwashing by men, ugh). However it always looks from the outside as if men have the same number of toilets which is very unfair. Someone has probably done this research! As a child with a weak bladder I spent a lot of time in and thinking about toilets!

 for you and your son @Overprotective007

My boys are 4 and 1 but I already worry a bit how we are going to deal with this in the future as a family as my eldest is visually impaired and I feel this makes him a bit more vulnerable as he just would not see someone taking an undue interest in him. I suspect I will be taking him into the ladies for longer than is probably deemed acceptable to a lot of people but at least I can honestly reassure people he won't be peeping at them as his sight isn't good enough

I've seen lots of dads take their daughters into the men's toilet. The problem comes when they get a bit older. To me 8 or 9 still feels too young to be sent alone into a toilet - male or female - or for them to have to wait outside alone while the parent goes to the toilet.

I've never seen exclusively boys rampaging around changing rooms or toilets. I've only ever seen very little children running around and that has been both boys and girls and at the pre school age and they have simply been being naughty, not being a peeping tom or terrorising girls getting changed. Over 5 and they are usually just changing with their parent.

There’s definitely a goady feel about this and ‘what about boys’ etc.
Basically, sexual abuse from strangers towards boys is pretty rare. Nowhere near the low level harassment that women and girls face on the street in daily life for example. The vast majority of men are heterosexual, not same sex attracted. I have very rarely heard about young boys getting randomly attacked by strange men in toilets or changing rooms. Boys are of course at risk of sexual abuse, but this is nearly always from someone known to them- not a strange man in a toilet.

The toilet thing is more about privacy and dignity rather than thinking trans women will pounce on women in toilets. I am personally happy with individual unisex cubicles with sinks, provided the exit opens up into a public area. But I think toilets are a huge distraction in this debate and repeatedly asking ‘what about boys in toilets’ doesn’t really help.

So the short answer is, I don’t think your DS or boys in general are at a big risk in male toilets. If you are worried about sex abuse, you should look to the males tasked with looking after your DS because these are the ones statistically more likely to be perpetrating any abuse.

Oh and 8 or 9 is not too old to go on your own into a single sex toilet. If you think thank Weet I don’t know what to say really. Your child will have been attending school for 5 years, using a toilet on their own. If they have no additional needs, you’re being completely ridiculous.

Mner
You have another yr as he's just under cut off.

Is he running out the line at school in the play ground or dinner queue?

If he isn't then, he can and does behave and you need to figure it out. Look at consequences etc . If he manages at school then there's no reason he can't manage it at home.

If he can't and there are AN at play then you would be justified in using the accessible toilets

Peakpants

It's not so much them going to the toilet on their own - though some children might well struggle a bit and there are often threads on here from parents upset that the child has come out of school not properly dressed etc - my point was more the having to leave a child on their own while the parent used another toilet, so having to leave them standing outside waiting for you when there is a danger that they might wander off. Not many of us would think it's ok to leave an 8 year old on their own somewhere and yet if they happen to be a boy out with their mum then it's fine? And I think it's wrong to say that young girls are more at risk from strangers than young boys. It would be interesting to see stats on paedophiles and who they offended against. Girls and women are more at risk but I would guess that young children are equally at risk.

And how you can say the " what about boys" question is wrong - isn't that what the thread is about?

PeakPants

I've just googled and according to the NSPCC you have predicted entirely wrong. Girls are more at risk from people they know, boys from strangers.

Both boys and girls can be sexually abused. Research suggests that girls are at a greater risk of being sexually abused by a family member. Boys are at a higher risk of being abused by a stranger (Maikovich-Fong and Jafee, 2010).

This is from NSPCC website

I have very rarely heard about young boys getting randomly attacked by strange men in toilets or changing rooms.

Then you have not been paying attention. FFS on this thread alone there was one mother of a boy to which it happened and I think several mentions of boys having been propositioned in the toilet.

In fairness the NSPCC also think a dress renders a penis nom existent as a weapon so not entirely sure how accurate their reporting is.

But 1 is always 1 too many and it's about time those responsible were truly held to account.