Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

I've never seen exclusively boys rampaging around changing rooms or toilets. I've only ever seen very little children running around and that has been both boys and girls and at the pre school age and they have simply been being naughty, not being a peeping tom or terrorising girls getting changed

I have seen naughty children of both sexes BUT only ever boys looking under doors - and the girls are not being actively terrorised - they are simply uncomfortable changing in front of boys (although as said upthread I do know of cases where boys have boasted at seeing their classmates without clothes on. The point is that girls are due privacy and dignity and this should not be minimised.

I believe to remember that I recently read (on this site, I think) that in a certain age bracket boys are more at risk of sexual abuse, and in a different age bracket girls are more at risk. If anyone has a link to these data, please share, 'cause I'd be interested in the actual phrasing and the source and method.

Anyway, trying to find this I have come across an interesting other finding:

'Only 16% of men with documented histories of sexual abuse (by social service agencies, which means it was very serious) considered themselves to have been sexually abused, compared to 64% of women with documented histories in the same study (Widom & Morris, 1997).'

Imagine that, there have been serious incidents of sexual abuse as a child and 1/3 of women and 5/6 of men to whom it definitely happened, have forgotten or reframed it somehow!

Giles, in fairness the NSPCC cited a study, and said study stands on its own, no matter who might cite them.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913705/

(It is not the study about age brackets I am looking for and which I'd really want to read, because I don't want to talk nonsense, just because I misconstrued something in my mind, which I once read in the internet.)

Scipio I read a short book when I was at uni on toilet usage. The researchers had gone to toilets all over the world to look at toilet usage. They said women take longer in the toilets for a whole variety of reasons: having to go into a cubicle every time, more clothes to adjust (and readjust), bags to arrange, doors to lock/unlock, higher use of toilet paper, periods to cope with, hand washing, use of soap. On top of that, they are more likely to be carers of children, disabled and elderly (who may also need the toilet, to wash their hands etc). They may well have shopping bags and changing bags etc to manage in a small space as well. Each of these things adds up and means that women spend much longer in the toilet than a man who uses a urinal and walks out again.

The article recommended larger cubicles for women and a much higher ratio of toilets for women. It was a really interesting little report actually on how public spaces that we use everyday without thinking just aren't set up for our needs as women. It was about 15 years ago when I read so I have no idea who wrote it but it has stuck in my mind.

Abuse of children in shared communal spaces is vanishly rare, so much so that it always makes headlines. Almost all abuse of children is by people who are placed in positions of trust over them.

Unless a child is literally alone in a changing room with a predatory man (which is incredibly unlikely) there is no danger. In my experience men in changing rooms, many of whom are fathers, keep an eye out on unaccompaned children.

I've been asked by mothers (when I have my son with me) to keep an eye on their boy or boys when in changing room, so that's one solution. It does involve trust, though.

It's all a symptom of the same problem isn't it?

Whether it's not on boy or boy on girl ( and both are equally horrific) you have to ask yourself why this is. And it's very clear. Through threads on here . Through life in general that boys have less expected of them. And that boys learn at an incredibly young age that inappropriate behaviour is normal. That it's just a laugh. And inevitably that they will get away with it.

By 9/10 although that is still young the difference is Incredible. It's not the girls showing eachother porn on their phones it's not girls giggling about willies and boobies. It's not girls asking kids for blow jobs in schools.

There are girls as young as 6 being sexually abused by their male classmates .

This entitlement comes from somewhere. I get the need to protect boys. Of course I do. I would not want any child or adult abused by anyone . Ever. It's sick.

But we still can't a completely rule out that the methods used to protect our children could also be the very reasons they behave the way they do.

And that to an extent goes for all of us. We have probabky all been guilty if saying things like "oh just stay away from eachother" when our kids are fighting at home.

But witg boys being the main culprits of the sexual abuse either against girls or eachother. Then something somewhere is going very wrong with how they are being raised.

Giles he has good days and bad days at school. He has consequences and firm boundaries both here and school. He had his
screens removed for hiding in the locker (he was on a final warning already). School have off and on voiced concerns as to whether he has any additional needs (depending on the teacher). We actually went this week to a private clinical psych for advice. She said no additional needs - he is "behind" in developing in certain areas and needs environmental support as well as some work on skills development (the latter we have already been doing with him).

I read a book a while ago that looked at all the neurological, biological, hormonal, societal differences etc between boys and girls. It said that on average boys mature 2 years after girls (for whatever reason). A really interesting read as it looks at all the evidence and debunks alot of myths (Pink brain, blue brain: how small differences grow into troublesome gaps - and what we can do about it - Lise Eliot). DS is bright but immature. I wouldn't be surprised if we are still struggling with impulsivity next year as well.

mner

Standing still in line is pretty basic. Reception kids have usually cracked it in the first few days at school. Hell even in pre school they line up . I would certainly say that if by the time he hits 8 and is past the cut off and still can't wait two seconds outside a toilet door then theres enough wrong to probably justify using the accessible. Especially if he can't manage it at school

Sorry I didn't mean for that to read and harshly as it perhaos did. What I mean is it sounds unusual to struggle with it so much even at 7 when he's done it every day for 3 years. So there's something there by the sound of it. So I think you would he justified

MnerXX - thank you for that précis of the book - I hadn’t even considered the extra clothing to adjust and bags. It is ridiculous that we don’t have better toilet facilities.

It is not that rare that strangers sexually abuse children and toilets Dad and changing rooms are a good place for that.

Here's a paper where they found 4% (one number suggests 9%)of children had experienced some kind of abuse with a stranger - including indecent exposure, but still.

rzukausk.home.mruni.eu/wp-content/uploads/2002_Child_Sex_Abuse_by_Strangers1-Copy.pdf

girl : boy ratio was 2 : 1. (age bracket of kids asked: 9-16 years).

Scipio the book did give average timings as well - I can't remember what they were but the difference between the time a man takes in the toilet and the time a woman takes was astounding. The time taken was toilet usage only - they did not include washing hands, etc as the study was trying to understand why women are berated for taking ages in the toilet presumed to be because they are chatting or putting make up on etc. But the queue is for the toilet and the women were already taking a lot of time over everything else before they got anywhere near the sink but the sink and mirrors are where the problem is presumed to be.

They had similar findings in other countries as well.

Thanks Giles. I think we shall have to play it by ear. For us as a family, until I can guarantee he won't run off, then once he hits 8, we shall have to plan our outings when it is just me and him a bit more carefully as to where there are toilets that we can both use.

deepwatersolo this is a really good study, but it includes all incidents of stranger abuse not abuse in communal changing rooms or toilets. A lot of the abuse is perpetrated by other children. Being with peers doesn't make much difference, and that children are nine times as likely to be involved in accidents than be abused. It's heartening to note that 9 times out of 10 a "No" from a child stops an abduction.

Parents should be much, much more concerned about their children being burned or run over than molested in a public facility. Over-cautious behaviour affects children's development. It's better to teach them techniques to handle themselves, and be cautious rather than fearful.

That's an interesting stat about people considering themselves not to have been abused.

I "forgot" my sexual abuse for decades and reframed the physical abuse. I didn't own it until I went to counselling in my late 30s.

Parents should be much, much more concerned about their children being burned or run over than molested in a public facility.

A timely reminder to me to teach road safety and behaviour around fire and matches, which up to now I had completely neglected.

To answer the point about children lining up at school - there is a difference between lining up in the playground, with all of your friends and under the guidance of a teacher to pull you back into line if needs be and being left on your own outside a public toilet with other distractions around, perhaps an appealing shop window or in a park or something. And rarely am I only 2 seconds slower than men in a public toilet.

This thread is quite sad. I am shocked that some adults are suggesting that young children be put at risk of harm in order to protect their right to privacy. Or the suggestion that it would be better for an adult woman to accompany her young child into the gents toilet, thereby violating the privacy of both men and boys rather than a young boy accompanied by his mum to go into the ladies toilets. That's just bonkers to me. No way would you accept a man bringing his daughter into the ladies toilet but it seems acceptable for a woman to go into the mens? Bizarre and very sad that grown women would put their desire for privacy above the safety of a child.

I guess we all have very different priorities.

weet
What are you on about.

8 is usually the cut off. So you are talking 9 year olds. Very often allowed out to play or down the park and given jobs at school etc

Expecting them to wait outside for a minute is not putting them in harm's way. And 9 year olds are like it or not a potential threat to young girls. Sorry but it's true.

A 9 yr old shouldn't be being brought into the ladies and good luck witg trying to get one to come with you

And you basically just confessed you plave more importance on protecting the privacy if men and boys by berating someone suggesting using the men's

I agree Weetabix. It is sad that these children are not prioritised and either their safety is put at risk and/or normal family life has to be adjusted to ensure that when young boys with their mothers are out of the house, appropriate, safe facilities are available. On a website for parents, that we should have to repeatedly justify that there are concerns is madness.

DS is 25th centile and very short. In all likelihood, I will take him in with me for a bit longer because he doesn't look anywhere near his age at the moment.

Gileswithachainsaw

Actually what I am saying is that I place the safety of a child above the right to privacy of an adult. But that if you insist that a male child should be accompanied by a female relative into the mens toilet, thus violating the right to privacy that you are so worried about of users of that facility then you have to accept that both ways.

And you might well be saying a 9 year old boy is fine in the gents but a PP said that it should be 6 years and older.

I really do not think that an 8 or 9 year old boy, accompanied by his mum, poses any safety risk to the patrons of a ladies toilet. Do post statistics to prove me wrong though.

And I would be very worried that any 6 or 7 year old boy asking classmates for a blow job has actually been abused himself. I wouldn't be too quick to label him as a perpetrator.

I once had 2 small girls crawling under my cubical door in public toilets. They were about 6 or 7, and completely ignored me when I shouted “Oi! Don’t do that!”. I was changing a bloody pad at the time and they crawled right over my feet!

I do worry about this. DS is 8, very slightly built and has ASD and ADHD, and just seems so small and vulnerable to me. I’m sure he will at 9 too. However, he’s keen to go into the gents alone, so in most places I grit my teeth and let him get on with it. He’s also pretty good at waiting outside the ladies for DD and me.

A timely reminder to me to teach road safety and behaviour around fire and matches, which up to now I had completely neglected.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell from context. If not - sorry.

I was making a point about the relative importance of these two issues. Parents tend to over-emphasise stranger danger (which of course should be taught) which gives children a skewed view of the the actual probablity of dangers they face in life.

As a parent I have an over-exagerrated fear of stranger danger. When my child was very late home, my fear was immediatley abduction, not an accident. As a child, by biggest fear was being eaten by a monster.

Abuse of children in shared communal spaces is vanishly rare, so much so that it always makes headlines

This just isn't true. I don't know a woman who hasn't had an experience -often as a girl - at the hands of the creepy man at the swimming pool/on the bus/in the park.

Before I was 12 I had been flashed at and groped by strangers. This is not vanishingly rare - it's vanishingly rare for girls to avoid it.

It is vanishingly rare for children to be kidnapped/killed by strangers and that may be what you are thinking of. Sexual assault though - an every day experience.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/09/child-on-child-sexual-assaults-soar-police-figures-reveal

weet