Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell from context. If not - sorry.

Well I have a son who is still alive at 8 so yes, that was sarcasm. I am able to worry about both safety in toilets and other dangers, and equip my child for both.

rightreckoner sorry - by shared communal spaces, I am talking about changing rooms and bathrooms.

I am sorry to hear about your experience. I know full well that most girls and women have experienced abuse and sexual harassment. In fact, I don't know a single women I've asked who doesn't have a similar story. I was referring to children being abused under these specific circumstances, and stranger abduction. Boys need to be taught not to do this shit, and respect other peoples' boundaries (girls, too, but that's less of a problem).

Gileswithachainsaw

I know, it's shocking but the very vast majority of those cases involved children aged 10 and over. They only broke them down to over 10 and under 10 so I would imagine that the biggest number happened in teenagers.

I doubt any of them involved children aged 6 - 9 using a public toilet with their mum.

The issue of how to keep young boys safe when using public toilets is absolutely not the same issue as sexual assaults by children on children. It is quite bizarre how determined you are to insist that young boys become collateral damage in whatever war you are fighting.

I'm not campaigning for boys to become collateral damage

I don't think it's a bad thing to ask ourselves if the ways people are trying to keep boys safe is simultaneously partly responsible for also causing the problem

A few months ago I got a proper earful from the toilet attendant at Paddington Station for letting DS go into the gents without me. He marched him out to me (fortunately after DS had already used the loo, so my 20p didn’t go to waste) and told me I was crazy, letting a little boy go in because it was “full or perverts” I had a similar experience in Berlin with a (female) toilet attendant who refused to let DS go in the gents alone and insisted I take him into the ladies. It’s frustrating, because I don’t want DS to be fearful (cautious and sensible, of course!) of going in alone, as the days of it being socially acceptable for him to come in with me are numbered.

I wish I’d had my wits about me ask at what age boys can use the loos at Paddington or Alexanderplatz unsupervised.

I don't think it's a bad thing to ask ourselves if the ways people are trying to keep boys safe is simultaneously partly responsible for also causing the problem

Really? In what way. How about how we keep girls safe - does that cause any problems?

Maybe girls would benefit more from being given more independence such as you are advocating for boys? Perhaps rather than take them into the toilets with us, because we can, we should just wait outside? Let all 8 year old girls go to the toilet on their own. After all, they've been doing it for years at school and apparently boys are capable of doing it and obviously the ladies toilet is safe, what with no men being in there.

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In the sense that when they get older and people still insist on bringing them into women's changing rooms, that you are also teaching them that it's ok to override girls boundries...And the low expectations of behaviour are allowing them to grow older thinking stuff is ok when it isn't.

In the sense that when they get older and people still insist on bringing them into women's changing rooms, that you are also teaching them that it's ok to override girls boundries..

So firstly how old are you talking about when you say older?

Secondly, many young boys that I know don't want go into the ladies. It's actually their mums making them go which actually is a case of women overriding boys' boundaries isn't it?

I wonder how much damage is being done to some boys growing up in the certain knowledge that their own mothers despise the most fundamental part of them - their sex?

I feel like the toilet situation shows how both women and children (of both sexes) are given a raw deal, which is fairly consistent with the rest of society.

And the low expectations of behaviour are allowing them to grow older thinking stuff is ok when it isn't.

Who has low expectations of behaviour? A PP above actually says that the only time it has happened to her was when two young girls crawled under her cubicle. What does this mean for their future development?

You can not seriously have got to adult hood and not seen or lived through different expectations of behaviour ?

A few months ago I got a proper earful from the toilet attendant at Paddington Station for letting DS go into the gents without me. He marched him out to me (fortunately after DS had already used the loo, so my 20p didn’t go to waste)

This is outing so I won't say where it happened and off topic, but I had a toilet attendant take my money and then 'shut up shop', locking me in. I was terrified because the desk was at the front and between the men's and women's toilets and I didn't know who else was in there. My shouts for help were met with hostility until someone said - 'no one knows where she is and we don't have a key - so please just be quiet' (lots of other people were shouting in a language I didn't understand). To make matters worse, I had the squits as a result of food poisoning so my partner thought nothing of me being in there for nearly 30 minutes and was having a quiet smoke outside. What really rankled was that when I was finally set free, with a glare from the ticket woman, I immediately needed to go again.

But really, at Paddington Station he should have been in no danger. Ditto Berlin.

I think Weetabix has some fair points. Particularly regarding overtly sexual behaviour from young children. That should raise red flags for anybody.

As for boys being the main instigators of showing porn to other children - I beg to differ- we had an (well actually numerous) incidents within neighbourhood of a 14 yr old girl showing very hardcore porn (including CSA) to other kids. This was a very troubled girl whom in my understanding was struggling in high school with bullying from her peers. I became a bit of a sounding board for her dramas (including domestic violence in her home) I did my best to offer her a helping hand. All the while unaware of how she was behaving to the younger children (including my own). DS1 (11) and other boy (12) came and spoke to me about what was happening. God knows how she manipulated them but they were scared to say anything initially for fear of not being believed. My son felt he really had to say something before she started trying to show it to the younger kids DS2(6) another girl (9). The 12 yr old was so frightened to tell his parents he begged me to do it for him. Which I did. We had a meeting as a parent group, in which it came out that a peer of hers (14) father had discovered porn downloaded on a device in their home (by this girl) whom he barred from his home. Without a word of warning to other parents. Thanks fuckwit.

Anyway have probably rambled on too long about this, but I got my son to write a statement about what occurred (which truly was one of the hardest things I've done as was very distressing for him) I also wrote one myself documenting my interactions and observations of her behaviour. I took these to the police and also made a call to family services. Because despite being really pissed about her behaviour - I understood it was a massive red flag for CSA.

So while statistically boys may appear to be the likely culprits. In modern society girls can also do it. At the end of the day imo the problem lies in the tsunami of porn out there, and the creeps that lurk on the internet grooming and luring children in.

Maybe girls would benefit more from being given more independence such as you are advocating for boys? Perhaps rather than take them into the toilets with us, because we can, we should just wait outside? Let all 8 year old girls go to the toilet on their own. After all, they've been doing it for years at school and apparently boys are capable of doing it and obviously the ladies toilet is safe, what with no men being in there

Happens where I go swimming with no issues. Girls get changed by themselves with no drama.

Giles but if boys are slower to develop (up to 2 yrs on average as per my previous post), how can our expectations of them be the same? We need to acknowledge sex and gender based differences (as well as individual differences) and try to work provide appropriate support for all children rather than just expect them to meet standards which could be impossible for them.

I don't know how this could ever work in reality...?

Sounds like cases of exceptions proving rules above.

That doesn't mean you can write off inappropriate behaviour because they may or may not "get it"

It means it takes longer to teach perhaps or to sink in. The problem.os the parents that trivialize the behaviour to begin with. You can't "get" something when others feel it's not important enough to teach in the first place

Shit, that sounds terrifying YetAnotherSpartacus!

As I’ve said, I’m trying to encourage DS to use public toilets independently, despite my anxiety about how vulnerable he seems. But these two incidents did make me question my judgement; especially the Paddington one where I was left feeling like a terrible mother, and DS was confused and worried that he’d done something wrong.

I do see differences in how we expect children to behave but I don't see them as anti girl and pro boy as you do. I think boys also have a rough time of it. Look at gender roles - it is way more acceptable for girls to step out of traditional gender stereotypes - to wear trousers or "un girly" clothes, to play with all toys not just "girls" toys, to choose any career that they want or to be a SAHM if they want. It would not go unnoticed if a boy chose to wear a dress or played with dolls or decided that he wanted to stay home and raise children. It's only fairly recently that it's been seen as "normal" for men to become nurses. Certainly when I trained the number of male nurses in my hospital was less than 10 (and they were usually called Dr by the patients). Then there's the expectation that "boys don't cry" or, are tougher than girls or that men will be sent to confront possible intruders if you hear a noise in the night. Boys don't have it all easy you know.

If I had to choose I would far rather be a woman than a man. I have never felt hindered by being a female. I have always had lits of choices from clothes,to jobs to my lifestyle. I chose to be a SAHM because I just wanted to be with my children, to enjoy them, even though I earned more than my husband at the time and me staying at home meant that he worked 6 days a week to support us.

Interestingly you haven't addressed any of the points that I made though.

Interestingly you haven't addressed any of the points that I made though

There's lots of the above that you have minimised or chosen not to address too.

Shit, that sounds terrifying YetAnotherSpartacus

It was. I dine out on the story now. The punchline was that instead of the 5 pieces of toilet paper that one was given when one handed over one's cash I had access to her stash - some of which I secreted in my bag for later. Lucky they didn't lock me away.

I never said boys have it all easy

And I grew up in the exact opposite environment. My brother was violent towards me my mum was powerlesspathetic to deal with it and Everyone was too busy thinking what a sweet little boy he was.

Neither girls or boys are born with instincts or set roles in life. It comes from socialization. Which is why we need to look at every aspect of that.

Yes there are exceptions to the rules but you don't
Have to have read that many threads on MN to see boy behaviour trivialized . And no don't think it does them any favours at all. I don't care if you are a boy or a girl I think any kid crawling under toilet doors should be read the root act. I wouldn't give a crap if anyone thought one kid might be less mature than the other at that point. Piss off or child friendly equivilant is universally understood

There's lots of the above that you have minimised or chosen not to address too.

Sorry, such as? I thought that I was addressing the points raised.

Point out what I haven't answered and I will reply, and then maybe you can do the same with my points.

.I don't care if you are a boy or a girl I think any kid crawling under toilet doors should be read the root act.
Yet interestingly you want boys removed from the ladies in case they do this, yet the only example of children doing it here are of girls, who are welcomed in despite them violating the privacy and dignity of the PP.

I am sorry about the treatment meted out by your brother but I do think that has biased how you view all young boys. There is a very real danger of creating a self fulfilling policy - if boys grow up treated by women as if they are inherently abusive or dangerous well, they might as well be that because they are already seen as that.

In my experience boys are treated far more harshly and have higher expectations placed on them. Girls are allowed far more lee way in their behaviour. The only difference that I've noticed is that boys can get away with being more boisterous than girls - by this I mean allowed to run around more or to not sit still. I've never seen them allowed to be more violent or spiteful (the opposite in fact. The old " you should never hit a girl" yet if a girl hits a boy then it's laughed off or excused by adults.

You have consistently minimised girls' discomfort for a start.