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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harassment of children in legal red light zone in Holbeck

226 replies

LaserShark · 14/11/2018 18:01

I’ve just read an article posted in a feminist group I’m part of on FB. It’s a Daily Mail article, detailing the harassment of young children in Holbeck where the legal red light zone is. Men offering parents money to rape their children. Most shockingly, a grandmother pushing a buggy with a four month old baby was offered money for an hour alone with the baby.

I can’t get the article out of my head. I don’t live a million miles away (thankfully not close) and it makes the these depraved men seem so much more real. I can’t understand how anyone could defend this legal zone - there has been a murder, rapes, sexual assault and it sounds like a free for all for all kinds of terrible men with monstrous appetites. And neither the council nor the police seem willing to help or even acknowledge the festering horror they have created, or allowed to exist openly. Somehow they have empowered these sick, twisted fuckers to feel able to ask to rape children in broad daylight; so pornsick and warped that they imagine this to be reasonable or likely or simply get a thrill from the violation of frightening and upsetting women and children by voicing their hideous thoughts. What is happening and why is no one acting to stop it?

OP posts:
Mooey89 · 14/11/2018 19:35

How am I minimising it? I’m asking for different sources because I want to learn about what is happening and I choose not to read it from a rag which picks and chooses whether it publishes truth or lies depending on how it will fit its narrative, how can i educate myself with a source like that?

You know what, I usually steer clear of the feminism topic but I was horrified by reading the OP so I asked for more info.
I’ll flounce back to AIBU!

HellenaHandbasket · 14/11/2018 19:40

It's like something from The Purge 😡

NothingOnTellyAgain · 14/11/2018 19:52

People have posted loads of other links, Mooey, after you asked for them.

Legalisation is a very unusual stance to take, do you mean decriminalisation.

Best approach imo is to criminalise the purchase of others for sex.

No-one wants the women men and sadly children working as prostitutes to be criminalised on top of everything else.

Consequnecs for punters reduces demand and that is a good thing.

No consequences for punters = what's happening in Holbeck, all women adn girls are presumed to be purchasable.

They have decided in amsterdam that their red light disctrict was a disaster as it was full of trafficked women.

Not sure what the germans think about their mega borthels which are a revolting concept and awful for the women inside them,.

MagicMix · 14/11/2018 19:58

OK sorry, that was a little strong and I take it back. I hadn't read your post so my comment was not intended as a personal insult towards you. People who think it is morally defensible to buy sex are trash.

But some of the people who think it should be legal to buy sex for the purpose of making the whole situation safer for the people who have been prostituted are indeed not trash. I think they are very wrong though. And an awful lot of the people who actively campaign for this under the guise of caring about safety actually don't give a shit.

PebbleDashed · 14/11/2018 20:02

How could anyone ever believe that allowing men to treat women as commodities to be bought and sold will not encourage them to treat women as trash, is what it boils down to.

Although I suspect that the incident asking for time alone with the baby was probably less of a real desire to have sex with a baby and more to do with hyped-up male scaring and intimidating a lone female for a laugh. It's what they do.

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/11/2018 20:07

OK sorry, that was a little strong

Strong but true.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/11/2018 20:11

I'm so fucking sick of this crap. Who in their right mind genuinely believes that giving pimps and traffickers a green light to sell women on the streets makes any woman safer? And even if anyone was starry-eyed enough to believe this in theory, how can you look at the evidence heaping up in Germany and New Zealand and continue to believe it? If you're really concerned about prostituted women, do some research. If you're here to do pr for the rape trade, sod off.

Womantheonlykind · 14/11/2018 20:27

I am so sick of this blatant horror show. Sick to my stomach and doubting entirely the humanity that surrounds me.

Glasgow is also ignoring child abuse and sex trade effect and that is without legalising it.

Time the high heed yins policed the source of the problem. Root beasts out and punish harshly, keep the public safe. There cannot be a logical way to condone abuse and it needs to be stopped. The longer this is ignored the more volatile vigilante gangs like the wolfpack will become and mistakes are bound to be made.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/12766853.The_Child_Sex_Scandal_On_The_Streets_Of_Scotland/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/govanhill-child-sex-trade-there-are-so-many-it-s-easy-pickings-for-child-abusers-m2swzc63h

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3089249-Child-abuse-prostitution-in-Glasgow-Times-investigation

Decriminalise for victims (women and children etc). Criminalise harshly traffickers/pimps/abusers(customer is a wholly wrong word for this scenario). All who profit from abuse must fear the law and society otherwise what the fuck kind of charade is democracy?

Womantheonlykind · 14/11/2018 20:28

Who can we campaign to get the Holbeck trial stopped?

Womantheonlykind · 14/11/2018 20:36

I don't get how being a sex worker removes the ability to be a victim of sex abuse. How a rapist is not committing a crime unless he rapes someone he believes cannot be bought. What ever happened to no means no?

Earlywalker · 14/11/2018 20:49

That is so awful, people offering to buy children Angry
I may be wrong but I believe Decriminalisation is more safe for woman, as it means those wishing to do sex work are more likely to do it in a safe way and those wishing to escape can do so more safely. However, obviously this is not a safe place and predators seem to have taken it to be some sort of free for all.
There must be another way? Making it illegal obviously doesn’t stop sex work, it just puts it in the hands of criminals and woman in vulrenable positions. I visited the museum of prostitution in Amsterdam recently and have worked (behind the bar) in a strip club in my youth and am a strong believer that anything involving sex work or similar needs to be regulated in a safe setting to protect woman.
In Amsterdam I believe the girls just rent a window/room? Some of them walk away with thousands per night and use it to set themselves up in life, it all appears quite safe.

Womantheonlykind · 14/11/2018 21:01

Comment from Gemma Scire, CEO Basis Yorkshire:

Basis have worked with women and girls experiencing sexual violence for nearly 30 years. The fact that rape and sexual violence are still issues for us as a society now in much the same way as 30 years ago is appalling. In fact, the rates of sexual violence nationally have increased at the same time as services for women have been cut drastically. 1 in 3 of us women have experienced sexual violence or abuse at some point in our lives.

The fact that dangerous offenders will target women with additional vulnerabilities is sickening, and as we know all too well in Leeds and Yorkshire, women selling sex on street have been targeted disproportionately, with perpetrators largely acting with impunity in the past. We know that Peter Sutcliffe targeted women from all walks of life, but particularly sex workers as he (and other perpetrators) have known that far from being protected, sex workers have been treated as offenders themselves. As the statistics from 2013 show, 93% of crimes experienced by women on street would not have been reported to the Police, leaving offenders at large and charities like ours supporting women to deal with the aftermath. The fact that 3 violent offenders were brought to justice in 2015/6 shows that people described as ‘predatory’ by the judge on the case is testament not just to the Police’s improved relationship with women, but the bravery of the victims themselves. Something not achieved in Leeds before.

That the perpetrators in this case felt additionally justified in targeting a woman because they thought she was a sex worker is a real indicator of the additional stigma that women selling sex face. It’s this stigma that silences women, stops them coming forward and prevents the Police from bringing those perpetrators to justice, protecting both them and the wider community.

What we know from our work with survivors of sexual violence is that being believed and having access to justice is part of the healing process. It continues to be absolutely imperative that we recognise the experience of women who have been victims of sexual violence, they get the specialist support they need, the criminal justice system responds compassionately to victims and justice is served.

AverageAvenger · 14/11/2018 21:10

Verbatim speech by Cllr Sarah Field from this evening’s debate in Leeds full council:

Thank you Lord Mayor.
I’ll get straight to the point: buying women and children for sex is unacceptable and we need criminal sanctions that stop men from doing it.

I note that in her amendment Cllr Coupar refers to “sex workers”. This is a necessary fiction to normalise the legalisation of prostitution, normalise it as just another consumer activity and normalise the position of men as merely clients. It obfuscates, rather than highlights, the harm of prostitution and completely ignores the executors of that harm.

This language of ‘sex work’ assumes that there are divisions between various forms of prostitution; such as between child and adult and between forced and so–called free. When in fact all these facets are contingent upon and encompass one another. Enormous sums of money are made from the monstrous trade in women’s and children’s bodies, leading inevitably to sex trafficking.

When we refer to sex work we are subscribing to a notion that it is ordinary work based on a bizarre notion of equality of opportunity, when in reality the VAST majority of prostitution does not fit this picture in any way whatsoever.

It’s not sex work. This euphemistic and sanitised language appeases the conscience of those who fail to acknowledge that prostitution damages women and children, it can NEVER be made safe and it fundamentally thwarts women’s rights to equality with men and their liberation, as a class, from systematic oppression.

To anyone who is happy to call transactional sex legitimate work, I’d ask if they’d be happy if it was the career choice of their daughters, wives, mothers and sisters? And would they be happy to see “sex work” careers advice in schools?

To quote feminist author Julie Bindel: “Any government that allows the decriminalisation of pimping and sex-buying sends a message to its citizens that women are vessels for male sexual consumption. If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace.”

It seems to have become a widely accepted axiom that prostitution can never be eliminated. Have we really set such a low bar?

When five prostituted women in Ipswich were murdered in 2006, what did Ipswich council do? It completely eradicated prostitution from its streets.

Ipswich did this through serious investment and multi-agency dedication to the Nordic Model.

I am calling on this council to learn from Ipswich.Visit them and work with them and their police force. I am calling for this council to abolish the shocking and scandalous “managed zone” and commit to the Nordic model, which seeks the following:

  • The decriminalisation of those who areprostituted
  • High-quality services and ring-fenced funding for those in prostitution
  • Buying sex to be made a criminal offence
  • Procuring, pimping and sex trafficking legislation to bestrengthened and the policing of these crimes to be fully resourced and prioritised
  • A widespread holistic approach of public information campaigns, education programmes in schools and training for the police

Leeds has become a city where women cannot even meet to discuss changes to government legislation, but where men are openly raping women, soliciting for sex with children and offering to buy babies.

Our city has become a notorious illustration of misogyny and this scourge must be stopped immediately.

Our women deserve better, our children deserve better, our communities deserve better and the only way forward is to end this sanctioning of sexual violence that should be morally despised.

In memory of Tania Nicol, Gemma Adams, Anneli Alderton, Annette Nichols, Paula Clennell and Daria Pionko.

AssassinatedBeauty · 14/11/2018 21:19

Wow, Cllr Sarah Field is my new hero. That is an absolutely fantastic statement, saying everything I would have wanted to say in a much more direct and powerful way.

Womantheonlykind · 14/11/2018 21:41

Brava Cllr Sarah Field!

failingatlife · 14/11/2018 21:41

Chillingly, I can imagine that some desperate parents might actually take up these men's offers if they're desperate for money and living in poverty. It happens in the Philippines apparently.

This has beef found to be an issue happening with the Romanian community in Glasgow. Parents pimping out their children while the authorities turn a blind eye to child abuse due to cultural sensitivitiesAngryHmm

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/1850898/children-are-being-sold-for-sex-by-their-parents-on-streets-of-glasgow/

www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/investigation-claims-glasgow-kids-being-13916157

The Guardian have a different take on it. Children really do count for nothing to the oh so liberal & woke Angry

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/10/roma-again-scapegoats-for-ills-of-society

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/11/2018 21:54

buying women and children for sex is unacceptable and we need criminal sanctions that stop men from doing it

This

Ereshkigal · 14/11/2018 21:59

it all appears quite safe.

It isn't. There is a huge trafficking problem in Amsterdam. As pp have said, legalisation increases demand.

Ereshkigal · 14/11/2018 22:00

Which leads to increase in trafficking by organised criminal gangs.

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/11/2018 22:07

Brilliant speech from Cllr Field. I've cut and pasted and saved it for future reference.

KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18 · 14/11/2018 22:13

Phenomenal speech. Thanks for sharing it.

Binglebong · 14/11/2018 22:17

If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace.”

This is an incredibly powerful, and incredibly accurate, statement.

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