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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The ethos of trans activism (thoughts of a trans woman)

247 replies

OneTimeThing · 29/10/2018 03:49

Full disclosure, I am a transgender woman. I am a parent. I have been involved in activism to varying levels (mostly on the periphery) and I have tried my best to follow the rules of this forum. I urge you to read this entire post, but will not be offended (or even know) if you don’t.

I am under no illusions, I know what what this board is about but I am not here to change minds. My aim is to effectively communicate the ethos and philosophy of the current trans rights movement as I understand it, and dispel myths. I am not at any point expecting people to agree with the ethos and aims (although I can’t lie, that would make me delighted beyond words) but I hope that at least some of you will have a better understanding of what drives the trans rights movement after reading this.

First, some caveats

  1. I cannot represent the entire trans rights movement (hell, I am barely. involved, I have children and live in the middle of knowhere). We are so incredibly diverse that nobody ever could. This is not a message from the trans community or the trans rights movement (these are two distinct things, btw). This is my attempt to explain a common outlook amongst the trans activist community, as I understand it.
  2. Once this is posted, I will not return to Mumsnet to answer questions or respond in any other ways. I know this will be read as me not being able to defend “my” positions or that I am here to lecture, condescend, demean or “transplain” to you...but this is not about me or my views. I want to get the facts - as I understand them - to you with as little of myself in this as possible. If I stayed and engaged with your points, eventually this would become about me, which is not the point. Also, I understand this is your space, and I do not want to overstay my welcome anymore than I already am by posting this.
  3. I know some of you will never listen to anything I have to say. That is okay. I do not expect or feel entitled to anyone’s attention. If this dies with nobody reading it, fine, if hundreds of you read it, also fine. I will never know either way.
  4. As I mentioned in (1), I cannot represent the entire trans community, nor can I answer for everything the trans community does. We are not a monolith. I am here to talk in broad strokes. Yes, some trans people are idiots. Yes, some trans people post awful things on social media. I hope you can take what I am saying in good faith and not use a 14 year old’s tumblr post about how the term “breast milk” is transphobic as an excuse to trash this entire post.
  5. Please believe me. These are things that - I believe - very broadly unite most trans activists. They believe these things, and to a certain extent, I do too. These are not lies to justify some alterior motive. Please believe me.
  6. I hope you can keep an open mind, even if you believe that the “other side” is incapable of keeping an open mind about your points. Please don’t use the flaws (perceived or real) of the “other side” as an excuse to sink to their level.

Okay, here is the main course:

  1. Trans people believe that the end point of your beliefs is their annihilation

The view of trans people is that to be a friend to trans people, all a person would have to do is accept them for who and what they say they are (Trans men are men, trans women are women...etc). Trans people do not demonstrate against people who accept them. They demonstrate against people that do not. If Julie Bindel came out and said “trans men/women are men/women,” nobody would demonstrate against her on trans issues ever again. They would continue to demonstrate against others.

But if you look at it the other way round...for trans people to become friends with a gender critical person...that trans person would have to give up their sense of self (their gender identity) almost entirely, and they believe that this can and has lead to people dying. You may think this is a histrionic response, but if you look around the gender critical communities, there aims tend to include rolling back legal recognition of trans identities, making it harder to access healthcare and - in some circles- the withdrawal of trans healthcare in its entirety...

Trans people see those aims as attacks on their ability to exist. These are things that trans people believe they CANNOT live without. Whether you agree with it or not, that is how trans people see it. Many trans women would rather die than go back to living as a man. Same with trans men. To trans people, this is about their very existence.

A not insignificant number of trans people use this as a justification to use the tactics of Antifa against certain groups and public speakers. For those of you unfamiliar, Antifa’s aim is to stop the spread of an ideology that will lead to genocide. Hitler and Mussolini started their fascist movements with less than a hundred people each, so Antifa look to nip fascism in the bud before it can bloom because fascism ALWAYS ends in genocide if left unchecked. There is no other destination for fascism than violence, and so they attempt to no-platform Milo, they get Daily Stormer’s hosting suspended, they protest Katie Hopkins....

Many trans people do not see you as fascists. But they do see you are potentially just as dangerous. They are scared that if you were to ever achieve your aims, trans people’s lives would be in danger.

Do they think that this will lead to death camps co-ordinated by FairPlay for Women? No. It is like I said before: they fear the removal of their ability to be themselves, which is essentially, death.

As you will know, it was Janice Raymond’s recommendations to the Reagan administration that resulted in the total withdrawal of trans healthcare from Medicare and Medicaid in the 1980’s. I mention this because some of you will be thinking that this is a totally irrational response and no gender critical people want to eradicate trans people. But this move did hurt thousands of trans people in the United States and it has been read by the trans community as a violent attack on their existence.

This is why trans people protest the meetings. This is why they work to no-platform people. They see it as self defence in a fight that could end with their death.

I know many of you will be thinking that they see it the same way, that the trans movement’s logical end point is the end and total erasure of biological womanhood.

You believing that does not cancel out how the trans community views you. Whether you agree or disagree with this assessment, this is how they see it.

  1. The deciding factor is not the fact that you are a woman or a lesbian: it is that you speak out against trans people.

As mentioned in my first point, trans people do not protest women who are campaigning for reproductive rights, or women who go to the shops or women who play football.

They speak out against people who speak out against them.

I see the argument thrown around a lot that trans people want to “silence women” and this is not what trans rights activists are aiming to do. Nobody tries to no-platform Julie Bindel because she is a working class lesbian. Working class lesbians campaign and speak out on a number of issues and trans people do not protest them. Julie Bindel’s sex, sexuality and class are not the reasons trans people show up to shut her down.

Her views on trans people are the reason. Her articles arguing that trans women are men and therefore are dangerous, are the triggers that cause a pushback.

So why are these women’s groups the focus of trans activists? Why not Christian groups? Or the far right? Because trans issues are not those group’s sole focus. These groups, when they do get airtime, and do hold meetings, are not solely discussing trans rights.

If Christian splinter groups were forming with names like “God Doesn’t Make Mistakes” or such like things, and were getting media buzz on anywhere the same level, trans activists would be there too. Trans activists were there to protest Milo, the cross over between Antifa and trans activists is not insignificant because fascism would not leave trans people alone. To claim that the trans community targets women because they are women is missing the point.

  1. Trans activism is more than Antifa tactics.

Trans activists take many forms. Some make support groups, others lobby MPs, some write, some paint, some tweet, I met one trans person who advocated for trans rights through dance. Whilst fighting back against gender critical voices is absolutely one big aspect of trans activism, the scene is so much bigger and with so many aims. This is important to remember, if for no other reason than when you look to respond, that you do not oversimplify the community .

And that is that. I want to reiterate why I have told you all of this. I am not here to argue that you are wrong, or that trans women are women or whatever. I came here to explain the ideology behind the protests and fight back. I sincerely hope this informs how you understand the trans rights movement. You may see this as me justifying abhorrent behaviour. That was never my aim. My aim was to inform how trans activists think - good and bad - in VERY broad strokes.

Thank you for reading, thank you for keeping an open mind.

OP posts:
horizonglimmer · 29/10/2018 18:04

Perhaps they think we are trying to annihilate them because they have never stopped around long enough to listen to what we are saying?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/10/2018 18:06

I don't appreciate any of it

Its so incredibly rude and well...RUDE!!!

It would not be tolerated on any other thread on mumsnet OR in real life

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 29/10/2018 18:11

"Give me what I want or I will kill myself" is the mantra of abusers around the world.

Ffsnosexallowed · 29/10/2018 18:16

What a bloody pointless op.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 29/10/2018 18:21

Horrible welcome if you are new.
Thank you for posting, you are one of a growing number who are speaking out against the TRA's tactics.

I agree with you, the TRA's are damaging the respect built up but people such as yourself and it may get out of hand and not end well, it's scary.

HorribleTranny · 29/10/2018 18:35

Thank you captain
To previous posters. In hind sight I will admit to being harsh with the actively hated comment, It does get tedious reading (mostly twitter but a couple here also)online that trans= mental health issues, trans = sex attacker,
The TRA's have to stop immediately the underhand tactics of contacting employers to see people sacked, They have to realise that women have valid concerns about access to women's places and refuges.
The claim that they are actual women will also have to go, Through here when I occasionally browsed I have found out about Fionn Orlander, D Hayton and Rose of Dawn among others, They have very bravely stuck there head above the parapet and hopefully with their rational sane voice other reality based trans (I hope we are the silent majority) can rally to them and team up with any accommodating feminist groups via online campaigns etc and reclaim the centre ground and fold away the ridiculously expanded trans umbrella.

donquixotedelamancha · 29/10/2018 18:40

Due to the actions of certain TRA's we are actively hated with a burning passion by the other forum members here

Absolutely, categorically not. I've had to argue with real life transphobia (directed at others) and this is not it.

Time and again posters reiterate our unwavering support for gender non conformity and for the human rights of transgender people.

Every time stupid transphobic posts appear (invariably not from regulars) they are challenged. Obvious transphobia is reported very quickly.

So long as some claim to be lesbian despite full working penis and others claiming we are just queuing up to see them and their daughters unchange/pee etc

I think these 'trans' activists are about as good allies to transgender people as someone dressed in blackface is an ally to a black person.

I'm not saying there is no ignorance or prejudice on FWR- it's inevitable we attract some bigots due to the debate- but there are also a truck load of allies who will stop this lot erasing gender dysphoria while we stop them erasing the rest of biology.

calpop · 29/10/2018 18:41

Horrible Tranny - I dont hate anyone and have no issue whatsoever with genuine trans women withbgender dysphoria, including the two I know in real life and consider friends. I have a lot of respect and sympathy for them and the struggles they have been through (both had very homophopic, bigot fathers). Theybare getting on with their lives without hurting women and without ranting on Twitter. They arent TRAs. They're the ones women have a problem with.

gendercritter · 29/10/2018 18:43

Anyone worried about my cat...I don't actually have one. I mean it's a trans cat. A gerbil. It's basically a gerbil.* I play along with it identifying as something else for fear of it dying.

*I don't have a gerbil. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, especially stuff written by Nazi's. Grin

tenorladybeaker · 29/10/2018 18:47

@HorribleTranny - welcome. I hope you stick around.

Just the fact that you make point (1) in your post means that we consider you an ally to women.

(2) isn't even true for those who don't agree with (1) - disagreement and hatred are different.

One of the biggest issues though is a narrative that stating of real facts, and assertion of the right to disagree, is being considered as "hate speech" - I would genuinely like to hear your own thoughts on how to reframe that narrative so that we can bring an end to hatred bring perceived where there honestly is none.

gendercritter · 29/10/2018 18:48

HorribleTranny not to be blunt but it gets tedious seeing death threats and threats of violence against women too. That's what I'm concerned with.

No one here thinks all trans people are sex attackers. Far from it. Some predators are trans. Some trans people are predators. That is not the same thing as saying all trans people mean us harm. I think people here have been vocal about saying transsexuals are being harmed by transgender ideology because we recognise there are individuals who just want to live their lives and don't mean anyone any harm. We are just hugely concerned about the men who do mean us harm.

FekkoThePenguin · 29/10/2018 18:51

I lost interest at the 'I'm going to say this but not come back'🐧

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 29/10/2018 18:52

it's inevitable we attract some bigots due to the debate

This is a good point, there is also always going to be people who get enjoyment from stiring and causing trouble.

However the majority on the site do try to have civil debate and report hateful posts.

Barracker · 29/10/2018 19:21

Wow.

ohello · 29/10/2018 19:23

I would still like to know... If I agreed to call them women would they keep their penis out of my shower cubicle? IE, agree that penises should not be allowed into woman-only space like athletic teams and rape crisis centers?

VickyEadie · 29/10/2018 19:26

Hamster00

I think I love you.

OlennasWimple · 29/10/2018 19:48

"Don't say you weren't warned. We told you what happen if you didn't do what we said. We clearly told you to just say a few words, and then all of this would be over. But you didn't listen, you didn't do what you were told. So now it's your fault if you or anyone else gets hurt. Is that what you wanted? Because that's what will happen."

OP can fuck off with their veiled threats and abuser's language

Knicknackpaddyflak · 29/10/2018 19:49

Horrible no hate here either for anyone. Even the most annoying, threatening and violent of the TRAs. (Loss of all patience, possibly.)

I agree with you, it's the black and white narrative that's so unhelpful. It's not possible for no trans people (or gay people or white people or women or men) to ever not be at all sex attackers. Some are going to be. Equally it's not the case that trans = no mental health needs, ever. It's the frustration of 'yes but SOME sex attackers have identified as women and SOME sex attackers are finding this a useful identity to appropriate' (so no, women's spaces are not being flung open thanks) being heard as an implication that ALL are. It's no different to when women try to talk about male violence and some men instantly say 'but not all men are like that, you're implying all men are violent, you hate men'. Sigh. End of all useful conversation that would change things.

We really, really need those voices of people like Debbie and Miranda and Rose and Hamster and yourself, we really need to help you with showing people that middle ground and being heard.

Hamster00 · 29/10/2018 20:59

Hi Horrible.

2 - Why even make the post? Due to the actions of certain TRA's we are actively hated with a burning passion by the other forum members here

Can I be a lil bit picky here. I have NEVER found myself (openly) hated by any member on this board. People may have "opinions" they may keep to themselves, but it's a little cynical to tar everyone with the same brush. Stereotyping and all that....

As I said earlier in this thread, yes, some of the things said can be a little uncomfortable or make you draw a sharp intake of breath - but there's a lot more at stake with this whole issue than a few hurt feelings and potentially bruised egos.

The stakes for women are a LOT higher than for us and making a sweeping generalisation/assumption based on the rantings of a few TRAs as to what goes on in these forums is not really accurate.

Just my opinion fwiw...

ohello · 29/10/2018 21:24

I tend to enjoy the company of transsexuals... They tend to be truly kind, thoughtful people. What's not to like?

The problem is, they are a VERY tiny fraction of all the people who are huddling under the trans umbrell, so when it comes time to discuss actual issues, I tend to "acknowledge their existence" in the exact same way that I incorporate the existence of intersex people into my analysis.

Which is to say, I don't. Intersex have nothing to do with determining whether or not male-bodied people with intact penises should have easy legal access to naked women. True Transsexuals have got the snip, they've made the commitment, they tend to be quite sane and very nice, not pushy at all. So why would I care what they do? We can go shopping together, tho, and etc, that's always fun.

ohello · 29/10/2018 21:25

If they want to, of course. Forgot to include that part.

Fwend · 29/10/2018 21:28

OP: I will speak first, at length, unprovoked and uninvited and you will listen. You will not respond, and even if you do, I won't take any notice. I will defend action that included violence against a woman in her 60s.

Also OP: I'm not like other men.

It's almost symbolic of a wider picture, isn't it?

Xenia · 29/10/2018 21:57

The first post was rather long. Mostly I never meet anyone trans. I have huge sympathy for them. However I believe the current law is fine as it is and I like most people want to call a spade a spade. That's about it really.

Good luck. A lot of trans people have mental health issues which is very sad and also can make them hard to deal with.

VickyEadie · 29/10/2018 22:02

I can't force myself to believe in God, either.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 22:08

horribletranny Please don't think we hate you 💐

The genuine kind of tranwomen with whom we happily co-existed for years, in mutual respect, has never been our "enemy".
I think we all keep trying to make sure that the batshit TRAs don't turn us against all transwomen, including those who would never harm us or wish us ill.

However, we're not always as calm as maybe we'd like to be, with real - not figurative - TRA violence and with frequent threats of murder, rape, burning, bombing;
also threats of getting the sack for anyone who won't lie and pretend TWAW

I think we would all feel deep sympathy for someone who finds their own genitals repulsive or alien;
many of us may dislike particular bits of our body, but that must be a horribly painful & personal form of body dismorphia

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