The ethos of trans activism (thoughts of a trans woman)

[OneTimeThing]

Full disclosure, I am a transgender woman. I am a parent. I have been involved in activism to varying levels (mostly on the periphery) and I have tried my best to follow the rules of this forum. I urge you to read this entire post, but will not be offended (or even know) if you don’t.

I am under no illusions, I know what what this board is about but I am not here to change minds. My aim is to effectively communicate the ethos and philosophy of the current trans rights movement as I understand it, and dispel myths. I am not at any point expecting people to agree with the ethos and aims (although I can’t lie, that would make me delighted beyond words) but I hope that at least some of you will have a better understanding of what drives the trans rights movement after reading this.

First, some caveats

1. I cannot represent the entire trans rights movement (hell, I am barely. involved, I have children and live in the middle of knowhere). We are so incredibly diverse that nobody ever could. This is not a message from the trans community or the trans rights movement (these are two distinct things, btw). This is my attempt to explain a common outlook amongst the trans activist community, as I understand it.
2. Once this is posted, I will not return to Mumsnet to answer questions or respond in any other ways. I know this will be read as me not being able to defend “my” positions or that I am here to lecture, condescend, demean or “transplain” to you...but this is not about me or my views. I want to get the facts - as I understand them - to you with as little of myself in this as possible. If I stayed and engaged with your points, eventually this would become about me, which is not the point. Also, I understand this is your space, and I do not want to overstay my welcome anymore than I already am by posting this.
3. I know some of you will never listen to anything I have to say. That is okay. I do not expect or feel entitled to anyone’s attention. If this dies with nobody reading it, fine, if hundreds of you read it, also fine. I will never know either way.
4. As I mentioned in (1), I cannot represent the entire trans community, nor can I answer for everything the trans community does. We are not a monolith. I am here to talk in broad strokes. Yes, some trans people are idiots. Yes, some trans people post awful things on social media. I hope you can take what I am saying in good faith and not use a 14 year old’s tumblr post about how the term “breast milk” is transphobic as an excuse to trash this entire post.
5. Please believe me. These are things that - I believe - very broadly unite most trans activists. They believe these things, and to a certain extent, I do too. These are not lies to justify some alterior motive. Please believe me.
6. I hope you can keep an open mind, even if you believe that the “other side” is incapable of keeping an open mind about your points. Please don’t use the flaws (perceived or real) of the “other side” as an excuse to sink to their level.

Okay, here is the main course:

1. Trans people believe that the end point of your beliefs is their annihilation

The view of trans people is that to be a friend to trans people, all a person would have to do is accept them for who and what they say they are (Trans men are men, trans women are women...etc). Trans people do not demonstrate against people who accept them. They demonstrate against people that do not. If Julie Bindel came out and said “trans men/women are men/women,” nobody would demonstrate against her on trans issues ever again. They would continue to demonstrate against others.

But if you look at it the other way round...for trans people to become friends with a gender critical person...that trans person would have to give up their sense of self (their gender identity) almost entirely, and they believe that this can and has lead to people dying. You may think this is a histrionic response, but if you look around the gender critical communities, there aims tend to include rolling back legal recognition of trans identities, making it harder to access healthcare and - in some circles- the withdrawal of trans healthcare in its entirety...

Trans people see those aims as attacks on their ability to exist. These are things that trans people believe they CANNOT live without. Whether you agree with it or not, that is how trans people see it. Many trans women would rather die than go back to living as a man. Same with trans men. To trans people, this is about their very existence.

A not insignificant number of trans people use this as a justification to use the tactics of Antifa against certain groups and public speakers. For those of you unfamiliar, Antifa’s aim is to stop the spread of an ideology that will lead to genocide. Hitler and Mussolini started their fascist movements with less than a hundred people each, so Antifa look to nip fascism in the bud before it can bloom because fascism ALWAYS ends in genocide if left unchecked. There is no other destination for fascism than violence, and so they attempt to no-platform Milo, they get Daily Stormer’s hosting suspended, they protest Katie Hopkins....

Many trans people do not see you as fascists. But they do see you are potentially just as dangerous. They are scared that if you were to ever achieve your aims, trans people’s lives would be in danger.

Do they think that this will lead to death camps co-ordinated by FairPlay for Women? No. It is like I said before: they fear the removal of their ability to be themselves, which is essentially, death.

As you will know, it was Janice Raymond’s recommendations to the Reagan administration that resulted in the total withdrawal of trans healthcare from Medicare and Medicaid in the 1980’s. I mention this because some of you will be thinking that this is a totally irrational response and no gender critical people want to eradicate trans people. But this move did hurt thousands of trans people in the United States and it has been read by the trans community as a violent attack on their existence.

This is why trans people protest the meetings. This is why they work to no-platform people. They see it as self defence in a fight that could end with their death.

I know many of you will be thinking that they see it the same way, that the trans movement’s logical end point is the end and total erasure of biological womanhood.

You believing that does not cancel out how the trans community views you. Whether you agree or disagree with this assessment, this is how they see it.

1. The deciding factor is not the fact that you are a woman or a lesbian: it is that you speak out against trans people.

As mentioned in my first point, trans people do not protest women who are campaigning for reproductive rights, or women who go to the shops or women who play football.

They speak out against people who speak out against them.

I see the argument thrown around a lot that trans people want to “silence women” and this is not what trans rights activists are aiming to do. Nobody tries to no-platform Julie Bindel because she is a working class lesbian. Working class lesbians campaign and speak out on a number of issues and trans people do not protest them. Julie Bindel’s sex, sexuality and class are not the reasons trans people show up to shut her down.

Her views on trans people are the reason. Her articles arguing that trans women are men and therefore are dangerous, are the triggers that cause a pushback.

So why are these women’s groups the focus of trans activists? Why not Christian groups? Or the far right? Because trans issues are not those group’s sole focus. These groups, when they do get airtime, and do hold meetings, are not solely discussing trans rights.

If Christian splinter groups were forming with names like “God Doesn’t Make Mistakes” or such like things, and were getting media buzz on anywhere the same level, trans activists would be there too. Trans activists were there to protest Milo, the cross over between Antifa and trans activists is not insignificant because fascism would not leave trans people alone. To claim that the trans community targets women because they are women is missing the point.

1. Trans activism is more than Antifa tactics.

Trans activists take many forms. Some make support groups, others lobby MPs, some write, some paint, some tweet, I met one trans person who advocated for trans rights through dance. Whilst fighting back against gender critical voices is absolutely one big aspect of trans activism, the scene is so much bigger and with so many aims. This is important to remember, if for no other reason than when you look to respond, that you do not oversimplify the community .

And that is that. I want to reiterate why I have told you all of this. I am not here to argue that you are wrong, or that trans women are women or whatever. I came here to explain the ideology behind the protests and fight back. I sincerely hope this informs how you understand the trans rights movement. You may see this as me justifying abhorrent behaviour. That was never my aim. My aim was to inform how trans activists think - good and bad - in VERY broad strokes.

Thank you for reading, thank you for keeping an open mind.

The idea that anybody on this board is ignorant of the views of transactivists and the hurty feels of individuals is laughable, since we've spent the last lord knows how many years being lectured on it incessantly.

I saw the length of the OP and, because I am a saggy-titted, haggard old bigot of a harridan and transphobe™, did not arse myself to read it.

Had lordly pronouncements and appeals to female socialisation out the wazoo, thanks.

Replies have been great though!

well I skipped the lengthy preamble and started with (1)

"The view of trans people is that to be a friend to trans people, all a person would have to do is accept them for who and what they say they are"

Ah.

So we need to do what we are told, shut up, definitely not disgaree with anything.

Do we have to accept EVERYONE for who and what they say they are?
Or does this just apply to people who say they are trans.

And on what basis should women and girls who are taught from a young age to be cautious, and have learned from experience that there are a lot of weirdos about who will do and say anything to get what they want, throw all of that taught and learned experience + their intuition away?

Telling GIRLS in partiuclar that they MUST accept everyone (or just people who say one of the things they are is trans?) as who they say they are and what they say they are is stupidly dangerous.

I teach my girls to listen to their instincts and if something feels off get the fuck away. I do NOT teach them to believe that everybody is who they say they are and what they say they are...

I don't know if I want to bother with the rest.

Read as far as:

If Julie Bindel came out and said “trans men/women are men/women,” nobody would demonstrate against her on trans issues ever again. They would continue to demonstrate against others.

“Lie and we’ll stop bullying you”

Couldn’t read the rest.

I also cba to do anynore than skim read it. OP are you really deluded anough to think that posting a masive diatribe like that is the best way to get your point across - a point of view that we are all well aware of as its all over Twitter. Yet more evidence of poor male communication skills, another defining feature. All the well argued, intelligent, logical debate (as in back and forth conversation) I see is coming from women.

Women have been bought up with this shit - bullying men enforcing their rules and their ideas becaue they say so, and have been surrounded by spoilt men who have never had to bother to learn to debate properly or take anyone else opinions into account.

Unfortunately, as we get to middle age, we just switch off and don't even try to listen to it anymore.

"The deciding factor is not the fact that you are a woman or a lesbian: it is that you speak out against trans people."

I've seen trans activists using "lesbian" and "terf" interchangably.
Also women who say they don;t want dick aggresisvely attacked (online).

" trans people do not protest women who are campaigning for reproductive rights"

yes they do >> example might be that model person who had a good bitch about womens marches going on about womens reprodctive stuff. "Pussy hats" were branded transphobi and women marching were told not to wear them. Loads of stuff everywhere about how "gynocentric feminism" is exclusionary. Moves to say that womens and girls oppression all over the world is nothing to do with bioloegy but because we are "femme" wtf

etc etc

this post is proper cobblers isn't it

Ironic - not to mention imbecilic - that the TRAs use anti-fascism as an excuse to behave a lot like fascists.

so you basically want people to lie and pretend that they see a woman, when they know without a shadow of any doubt, that they’re looking at a man? To tell the naked Emperor that he’s wearing clothes? No, I won’t do that.

OP - you really show that you have no idea what gc women think or want. Like trans folk we are not a "monolith" but even the most hardline of us would not want trans annihilation- I mean such DRAMA.

You do yourself a disservice posting such a misunderstanding of the gc position.

"orking class lesbians campaign and speak out on a number of issues and trans people do not protest them"

YES working class lesbians are very popular and everyone listens to them esp male establishment

this thread is gold

Once this is posted, I will not return to Mumsnet

I read up to there ^ if you're that arrogant that you expect people to read your novel of a post but can't be arsed to read the replies then I don't want to read your words.

Going down the Antifa road is not good - surrendering your individuality by dressing in black and covering your face and then smashing up property and attacking people with a clean conscience as they know God (well, not God as they're Anarcho-Communists) is on their side in the struggle against fascists (as defined by them).

This will not end well, and a lot of people are going to get hurt or end up in prison before they wake the fuck up and realise this.

I made a comment yesterday regarding the sacking of that JMU lecturer along the lines of 'It's all getting a bit Cultural Revolution' and that applies here too (showing that it's totalitarianism rather than just fascism that ends in huge death tolls).

Finally, at least the students have the excuse of the ignorance of youth. The OP doesn't give their age apart from their being a parent but still come across as old enough to know better.

(Oh, and applause to DanceLikeEmmaGoldman for 'suffrajitsu').

The belief that people who want to have reasoned discussions about the impact of changes to the law are trying to annihilate you is a dangerous delusion. Unfortunately it's one the media and political establishment seem too scared to call out fucking cowards leaving women to defend ourselves alone against the growing numbers of people endulging in this kind of delusional thinking.

The authorities are currently doing what people have done for years when witnessing abusive men attack women while saying "you made me do it" - they're turning away and pretending they didn't see it.

Meanwhile people like the OP think this is acceptable and to be celebrated.

Who's the fascist, again?

If the OP's wife is reading this, I'm sure she'll get tea/gin and sympathy over on the transwidows' thread. It does shine a particularly revealing light on the type of behaviour those wives and families have had to endure, doesn't it?

OneTimeThing From a transsexual's point of view, let me give you a really short and simple reality check.

1. You either accept trans women are biologically male - or you don't. No amount of "clever words" cannot denounce biology. You cannot erase history no matter how much surgery you have.

2. You either stand with women and respect their right to their own spaces - or you don't.

3. You either respect the fact that trans women cannot be lesbians - or you don't. Unless there has been some kind of re-definition of the word "lesbian" I was unaware of, lesbians don't "do" penis.

Anything else in your wall of text is just basically mansplaining.

As an aside, I also find the tone of your post more than a little patronising and somewhat akin to taking a shit on someone's doorstep and walking away. If you're going to debate, then debate - not just walk away.

Damn the lack of editing..

Should read

1. You either accept trans women are biologically male - or you don't. No amount of "clever words" CAN denounce biology. You cannot erase history no matter how much surgery you have.

all a person would have to do is accept them for who and what they say they are.

Absolutely fine accepting somebody for who they are.

Drawing the line at who they say they are. Why is that so strange? It’s internet safety 101 and the reason you ask for ID before letting a stranger into your house.

TL,DR;

COMPLY #NoDebate

ftfy.

The OP clearly does not understand what civilised discussion is.

I would conclude that post was very gendered though not in the way the OP would assert.

Ah, Hamster

Thank you for proving, once again, with your very presence, that Mumsnetters are not out to ‘annihilate’ transpeople

I’m sure OP is enjoying all the email alerts re: replies to thread

Damn it, I did read with an open mind, hoping to find something educational.

And some cheeky fucker took the opportunity, while I carelessly left my mind open, to piss into it with lots of passive aggressive whining.

Yes, we know that you think you will leave women alone if they repeat the mantra of your faith. We know it's also an article of your faith that you will die unless everyone repeats the mantra.

But a) you won't, b) even if we said it, we know it's never enough because you push and push and push c) we're not going to say it, because we don't believe it because it's not true

Thanks for coming.