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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

TG day of remembrance

458 replies

WomanAndProud · 22/10/2018 15:08

When did 20 November become the transgender Day Of Remembrance?

Is there an International Women's Day of Remembrance? We bloody well need to get onto it given the numbers of us who are actually killed every single day. And given that the majority of women who are murdered are killed by men, that's anti-women (adult human female, to be clear - and that's not exclusionary, trans women don't want to be included anyway, they've made their own day they can't now complain about not being in ours).

And I do hope that they'll be remembering the trans people killed by other trans people. Because there are a fair few of them too.

TG day of remembrance
OP posts:
NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 22/10/2018 19:45

I don't really see that it's appropriation, and I don't see how it's so impossible that a white trans person in the UK could feel some affinity with a black or Latinx trans person in the US, enough that they want to light a candle for them or whatever once a year.

As a lesbian in this country, I don't feel worried for my own safety, but I do feel strongly moved by the dangers and persecution faced by lesbians in some parts of the world. It feels close to home even though I know I'm fine. As a Christian, I remember those persecuted for their faith abroad in our intercession prayers, whilst knowing that it's a terribly middle-of-the-road identity where I am. As a feminist, my heart aches for the many many women still dying at the hands of current and previous partners, even though i do not know any personally and don't really see those women as 'me' any more than I do the lesbians subject to corrective rape in South Africa.

I have complicated thoughts about trans issues and major issues with the Stonewall approach but this is stupid whataboutery.

Earlywalker · 22/10/2018 19:47

Also there is a rememberance day for woman abused by men - www.whiteribbon.org.uk

But it’s obvious where your minds are at. It’s a shame ‘feminists’ don’t care about that sort of stuff anymore though unless it fits their agenda.

BettyDuMonde · 22/10/2018 19:50

Thanks Early - what date is it? I followed your link and couldn’t see it - might be why people don’t know about it!

It clearly needs a better push for recognition.

Earlywalker · 22/10/2018 19:52

25th november, white ribbon has over 175k likes on Facebook, so it does have exposure.

JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot · 22/10/2018 19:52

"To expand, we obviously want people to remember their dead loved ones, but when said people don't have dead loved ones, or any sort of connection/friendship/etc with them it's hard to see this as other than a political act, and hence subject to criticism."

In your view, is that true of all days of remembrance, or only this one?

ResistanceIsNecessary · 22/10/2018 19:53

Earlywalker the sentiment of wanting to remember those who have been victims of discrimination and violence is admirable. However the manner of expression and actions are inconsistent.

If TWAW then why isn't there more noise about a day of remembrance for the two women killed in the UK every week as a result of domestic violence? There have been no trans murders (a good thing) so why ignore the community you are claiming membership of, which is right on your doorstep?

If trans-sex workers in Brazil are at much higher risk of fatal violence, then why do so many TRAs oppose the Nordic model - which criminalises the men who buy sex - and instead propose full legalisation - which has been shown to increase human trafficking and sex slavery?

When viewed through those lenses, it feels less like a day of remembrance and more like an opportunity to appropriate someone else's suffering in the name of a fashionable cause.

message tweaked by MNHQ

JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot · 22/10/2018 19:54

Thanks for that link Earlywalker. I shall be marking that in my diary and disseminating the date to those I know.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 22/10/2018 19:54

Bloody hell - that question mark after 'a good thing' should NOT be there. I have reported my post to MNHQ and asked them to edit it.

breastfeedingclownfish · 22/10/2018 19:56

"If TWAW then why isn't there more noise about a day of remembrance for the two women killed in the UK every week as a result of domestic violence? There have been no trans murders (a good thing?) so why ignore the community you are claiming membership of, which is right on your doorstep?"

"If trans-sex workers in Brazil are at much higher risk of fatal violence, then why do so many TRAs oppose the Nordic model - which criminalises the men who buy sex - and instead propose full legalisation - which has been shown to increase human trafficking and sex slavery?"

Yes and Yes to both! Very well said

BettyDuMonde · 22/10/2018 19:57

Thanks! I might drop them a line and point out that putting the date on the front page of the website would probably help with engagement.

I wonder why it’s white ribbon?

I associate white with surrender, which doesn’t seem quite appropriate. I’m sure they have an explanation somewhere though!

ResistanceIsNecessary · 22/10/2018 19:57

To clarify why that happened, I tend to type a bit of stream of consciousness and then go back and edit - which often involves me moving words and sentences about. The question mark should have been deleted as it was originally at the end of the point about the day of remembrance. It is a good thing that no trans people were murdered. Hopefully MNHQ will edit ASAP.

JillyArmeeen · 22/10/2018 19:59

"There was a great deal of discussion as to the health risks for transwomen taking certain brands of hormones- one person said they knew three other people who’d died taking them, and they’d nearly died as well."
From the 'we're still here' thread, minutes from the meeting.
I'm guessing from this, more transpeople die from transitioning than from murder (one would be more so seems likely) possibly from murder and suicide deaths combined. Are those people remembered?
Where are the numbers on this?
You would think trans people dying from their medication would be of interest to trans allies and advocates.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 20:01

I do, however, wonder how the significant incidence of trans-women sex workers being murdered aligns to the popular TRA view that sex work should be legitimised. Surely the Nordic model would offer better protection for those trans-women and considerably reduce their risk of physical harm. Yet we are decried as SWERFs for offering up the view that prostitution is exploitative and dangerous.

Me too. Yes.

AspieAndProud · 22/10/2018 20:05

If I say I’m prepared to set aside a day of remembrance of all the transwomen murdered for their identity in the UK will somebody remind me who they are?

wingwarbler · 22/10/2018 20:08

The white Ribbon organisation is a men's organisation, who say they are working to end violence against women. Men are ambassadors, but women can only be champions. I don't know enough about them to comment further. Though they do say it is about men talking to men and taking responsibility, and not being heroes etc. "The campaign is about engaging men in taking action against violence towards women and girls. It is not about men ‘riding in to save the day’. Men must ASK, LISTEN, then ACT. This is where our Champions come in". They do mention all genders which is a but suspect obviously.

The UN have designated November 25 as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

Shall we have a new thread to look at what we can do on that date for women?

Reggiano · 22/10/2018 20:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

theOtherPamAyres · 22/10/2018 20:10

There is a project tracking the murders of transgender people globally.
These are the people who will be remembered and honoured.

(Side note: imagine if there was a website tracking the murders of women, girls and girl babies, globally - the statistics would be mind-blowing).

Back to the point. Looking at the transgender murders (as I do, periodically) you'll note that the majority are transwomen

  • prostituted
-operating with highly dangerous clients -under the control of abusive pimps -in places like South America, particularly Brazil

(The lates figures come from 2017. Of the 325 murders during the year, 267 occurred in South America, 3 in Europe, 26 in Asia, 26 in the USA and Canada, 1 in Africa, and 2 in Russia)

No-one is saying that a prostituted man cannot be remembered and honoured by transgender people. What I find difficult to accept is that these prostituted men were killed for being transgender. Isn't it just as likely that they died because they were prostituted men ?

tgeu.org/tmm/

JenFromTheGlen · 22/10/2018 20:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wingwarbler · 22/10/2018 20:10

The UN still holds that women's rights are female sex based.

CEDAW AND VIENNA 93 are powerful conventions.

BettyDuMonde · 22/10/2018 20:11

Naomi Hersi

(although the reasons for Hersi’s murder were not clear, the perpetrator pleaded guilty. Hersi was killed by a nasty, violent, entitled male murderer, who callously ended the life of a sex partner he no longer had an interest in or use for. No suggestion has been made that Hersi was victimised specifically for being trans).

That’s it for 2018 (so far). There were none in 2017.

Thankfully.

JenFromTheGlen · 22/10/2018 20:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuietContraryMary · 22/10/2018 20:17

"If being GC is all about protecting women’s rights, please tell me how a transgender day of rememberance erodes your rights? "

It's very simple. Transwomen claim that they are/would be attacked in men's toilets, are at outlandish risk of murder/rape/etc., and therefore need extra legal rights (which come at the expense of natal females).

By presenting a narrative that tw are being killed, using TDoR, this attracts public sympathy, political support, etc. for their political goals.

On a very simple level, it works like this: white man says 'I'm a victim, give me more rights' - everybody laughs 'you're in the group that's exact opposite of victim'. But if said white man becomes a TW, they are able to successfully argue that they are in an out group and in need of special rights. And this comes despite the TW being in many cases very plainly enormously privileged.

As an example, John Ozimek as a man was simply a hardcore pornography advocate. That was fine, but nobody treated him as anything more than a rentaquote when they needed someone on some new pornography law or whatever. It was understood that John was a consumer/advocate for hardcore pornography, but nobody seriously imagined that John was oppressed.

However when John started identifying as Jane, suddenly the narrative changed, and Jane was able to identify as a feminist, a member of a victim group, and so on.

We have to look at where this insta-victim status comes from, because on a basic level, as a middle-class white journalist,
John/Jane is very plainly NOT a victim, nor someone at great risk of violence.

We know from police figures that transphobic violence is by far the rarest form of hate crime, and while, say Sajid Javid, as an Asian male, is at risk of random racial hate crime, I don't think we would recognise Sajid in our analysis as a 'victim', even though racial hate crime is at least 100x more common than transgender hate crime.

And I don't think we have a 'racist murder day of remembrance', even though there is a real risk of racial violence & murder in this country, and racially motivated murders are something that happen from time to time.

And again we have an epidemic of sexual violence and murder against women and girls and there is no day of remembrance there either.

So you have to look beyond 'these people just want to remember their dead friends', and actually look at the facts, look at who is celebrating these events, and what message is being sent out. If Thurrock Council are raising the transgender flag for TDoR, but the local police tell a woman not to walk home a certain route because she has experienced sexual violence from men on that route, and it's likely to be repeated, I'm not really sure what the message is being sent out there, but it's certainly not 'let's think about the safety of women and girls'.

Because let's be honest, the risk and fear of random sexual violence (quite outside domestic violence) is something that every woman and girl lives with for decades, and nobody's doing a damn thing about it other than saying 'get a taxi home' or whatever.

Now ok, on one level, if a transwoman is perceived as female by an attacker then that TW might be subject to a heightened risk of random sexual violence, as opposed to someone who just looks like a man, who in general don't worry about being raped AT ALL, but to somehow frame this as transphobic violence is quite the take, when the risk is literally only a function of the fact that the subject is perceived as a member of the female sex class, that is to say the subject of the overwhelming majority of sexual violence and murder. And not a day of remembrance in sight there.

The official recognition and observance of TDoR is the political favouring of one group (transwomen) with the intent to prioritise it over others (women).

catkind · 22/10/2018 20:32

I get the impression a lot of the people doing the remembering do not actually know the story of a single victim of transphobic violence. That's not actually remembering is it? If it's about these south American prostitutes, tell us some of their stories, how did they end up on the streets, how did they come to be killed, who did they leave behind?
Otherwise it comes across as another attempt to paint transpeople in the here and now as victims and imply transphobia (actual transphobia as oppose to existence of biology transphobia) is much more common than it really is. It's scare tactics, to the detriment of good constructive conversations around transgender issues.

OlennasWimple · 22/10/2018 20:37

The big fat elephant that is missing from the narrative around the TGDOR is that the vast majority of transwomen are murdered by men. The second biggest perpetrator group is other transwomen. The number of women who have been convicted of murdering a transwomen - across the globe - is vanishingly small

And yet it's nasty terfy, cunty women who are so dangerous that transwomen protestors at feminist events need a human shield and transwomen political activists claim that they have to leave the room because the presence of known feminists makes them feel unsafe Hmm

OlennasWimple · 22/10/2018 20:44

This list of transwomen killed in the US is interesting because of the number of gun victims in the list. I don't know whether this is in line with the overall homicide trends for the US last year, or whether there is something different going on