So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

woman I'd been thinking of the same analogy; you simply can't self Id as a disability, a race, a sex. These are biological realities. Now that you can marry who you wish, wear what you want, be who you want to be there should t be the need for any paperwork unless this is a diagnosis. And a diagnosis takes time understandably. It is difficult and I found some of my physical diagnoses humiliating actually; I didn't want to be there but it has put markers on my medical notes that are important. Sex linked conditions and treatment is important.

I guess, if you were a raging sexist, it would make sense to accept than any man who like to be soft and gentle was a woman if they said so.

If you realise that woman is just an adult human female, it makes much less sense. HTH, DadJoke.

DadJoke
You've omitted a third option, that they are women (gender). That is, they aren't woman by your definition, but they are by other definitions we've already discussed.

What definition of 'woman' are you using here?

Gosh why don't we just start having "vaginas only" or "penises only" written on the changing room and toilet doors instead of men/women only. How can self-identified trans people get around that one eh?

@tired I actually thought the same recently. Sad.

tired Don't forget a penis can be an extended clit so part of the vagina. Sorry, what was formally known as a penis. My mistake.

Dear lord. No explanation for the accompanying balls though right?

Very large external ovaries of course.

tired and handlebar me. Except then a giant wave of snark hit me, and I thought wouldn't it be cool if someone taped a picture of a cartoon princess on the mens loo. That way, transwomen could identify with the pretty picture and they'd go in that door.

I dream of a world where the men's room is painted pink, with sparkles, feathers, and pillows everywhere and those hollywood diva lightbulbs on the mirrors. Men keep saying that they don't care about decorating so they're fine with it -- and the transwomen can be stunning and brave in a room fit for a princess.

tired and handlebar me TOO.

Turn it round. What rights do you think trans people are threatening? Give you a clue. What is 2 minus 2? Not a trick question.

(The answer is zero.)

I don't think trans people themselves are threatening rights. I DO believe that allowing people to legally self identify as a different sex destroys any legal defence of women's rights.

Women face discrimination because of their biology. If biology is legally uncoupled from 'woman' and 'female' then how can we fight this discrimination?

What jelly said

Women have the right to a space free from men. TRAs want to take those female spaces away, by demanding access. We gave the right to talk about periods, pregnant WOMEN, the menopause, sexual harassment and growing up as females, but the TRAs say those subjects are transphobic.

We have the right to say NO, you can’t claim that woman is no more than a feeling, because we are so much more than that. The TRAs don’t agree.

Don’t try to gaslight women into believing that trans identifying men are not trying to take our rights. You’re just being incredibly patronising and treating actual women as if our opinions matter less than those of men who want to call themselves women.

What rights do you think trans people are threatening?

My right to be recognised as a biological sex and to exclude anyone of the opposite sex from that.

My right not to be grouped with dissimilar people against my wishes, by being compelled into a category akin to religion or belief, one which I do not share

In short, if 5000 or 500000 trans people wish to create a category for themselves called gender I have no objections to that.

I'm not going to be in that category with them, and none of them get to opt into my sex category if they are not my sex.

And I won't allow rights belonging to my sex to be reassigned to an entirely different category, 'gender'.

Can I invoke Bunbury's law here? - "It is not necessary to answer an unrelated question if the original query has been ignored by the question poser."

Wouldn't want anyone wasting their time answering our most recent questioner before they have taken the time to answer the thread title.

The existence of trans people threatens no-one.

Rights will be lost if it becomes impossible to define adult humans born with bodies of the type that produce eggs i.e women.

If you can clearly and effectively define ‘woman’ in any other way, please explain.

DadJoke how does "a child from a young age" know they are trans/in the wrong body?

Children (trans or otherwise) have a strong sense of their gender identity by the age of four. By that age, they know if they are boys or girls. Usually, this assignment matches their sex. Trans and non-trans children follow similar patterns of behaviour and reported attitudes.

There are a whole bunch of gender identity development studies; here [[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cdev.12758e]] is one that pertains to transgender children.

One cautionary note is that gender dysphoria is not reliably persisent is younger children; from adolescence upwards though, the vast majority do persist. One interesting factor which is predicitve of this is whether the children "believe" they are of the other sex, or whether they "wish" they were of the other sex. A good study [[https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Steensma-2013_desistance-rates.pdf]].

DadJoke do you think trans children would exist if gender stereotyping didn’t exist?

DadJoke do you think trans children would exist if gender stereotyping didn’t exist?

Even if we limit this question simply to gender dysphoric children, then yes. There is no doubt that some children think they are "born into the wrong body," and that would be true if gender stereotyping did not exist.

There is no doubt that some children think they are "born into the wrong body," and that would be true if gender stereotyping did not exist.

You seem awfully sure about that. How do you know? How do they know?

If there was no gender stereotyping then some children may still feel “born in the wrong body” but I suppose in those cases it would be more abundantly clear that it was some sort of mental disorder.

Like people who have that disorder where they think one of their limbs don’t belong to them. We don’t go “Oh well let’s chop it off then” do we?

You seem awfully sure about that. How do you know? How do they know?

On the basis that gender dysphoria most likely has a physical cause and changing gender stereotypes wouldn't affect that, yes.

Gender dysphoria is similar to other dysphoric conditions, and have a similar, physical, root cause. This is based on twin studies and genetics. See this paper and this one.

There are also a large number of papers on the development of gender identity which appear to support this view. In many studies, the outcome for gender non-conforming children (those who are happy with their body but don't want to follow gender stereotypes), and gender dysphoric children is different. In other words, there is a distinction between "wishing" and "believing" as I mentioned above.

Children with gender dysphoria seem to keep knowing their sex is wrong; GNC kids are more likely to accept their sex and simply be GNC.

None of this speaks as to whether gender dysphoric people are women or not. If you are GC, they aren't; 4th wave feminists, most medical professionals, and human rights bodies would say they are.

most medical professionals...would say they are

I really hope for their own sake (and mine) that every single qualified medical professional can tell the difference between a male body and a female body, otherwise lives are at risk.

If any medical professional believes that the thing that makes me female is located in my brain or in my soul, perhaps they could enlighten everyone else, because they have been keeping awfully quiet about this amazing scientific advance.

Believing that gender dysphoria exists is not the same as believing that a female person can have a male body or vice versa. Even Dr Harrop hasn’t ever been able to explain what trans women and women have in common that they don’t share with men.

Only skim read DadJoke but the twin study abstract is a bit useless because it lumps together monozygotic and dizygotic twins

'Prevalence of clinically significant GID symptomatology in the twin sample was estimated to be 2.3%'

Might be interesting to read in full, but I don't want to spend £36 for the privilege.

The Genome Characteristics one has only 14 people in it, which isn't enough to extrapolate to a population in my opinion.