So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

As for the swathes of people who don't think they have a gender identity

Strictly speaking according to Stonewall they are trans.

So does that mean we are forced to have a gender identity even if we believe we don't have one? I thought we were all supposed to self-define our identities.

#translogic

Please don’t pretend that redefining ‘male’ and ‘female’ only affects trans people, or that definitions of gender used by organisations like the WHO are in any way adequate.

Transgender people say they want the right to define their own identity. But if transwomen are women, then that means that the word 'woman' has been redefined to include male-born people. This forces actual women to redefine ourselves as a subset of women, meaning that we no longer have the ability to define our own identities.

Why should transgender people have the right to define who I am?

Your definition of woman is adult human female and rooted entirely in biology, so, of course you dispute gender identity is a thing and deny transwomen are women

Please explain why the definition needs to have anything to do with anything other than biology?

I didn't invent this defition - I just pointed at it. You'd need to ask the WHO, the NHS. NICE. PAHO, EHCR and, major international psychiatric body or gender studies professor. I am not the owner of it.

You'd need to ask the WHO, the NHS. NICE. PAHO, EHCR and, major international psychiatric body or gender studies professor.

If you, a third party, can't explain it, it's a pretty meaningless and useless definition.

Here is the WHO definition of gender:

"Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health. It is important to be sensitive to different identities that do not necessarily fit into binary male or female sex categories."

What isn't clear is how anybody could read this and believe that segregating people according to established gender norms is a good idea.

I don't have a gender identity. I know that I am a woman, ie an adult human female. But that's biology, not an identity.

A person absolutely can, if that's how you define gender identity. You don't have to agree with the definition though.

In your case, you don't think you have a gender identity and you are a woman, so by the defintion above (which you entirely dispute) your gender identity is "woman."

According to WHO, if there is no gender incongruity you are "cis," otherwise trans. Please don't kill the messenger when I say this!

A good analogy is neurotypical and neuroatypical. For example, if your proprioception isnt' work, you certainly notice it, if it doesn't you might not even be aware you have it.

Do you think gender dysphoria is a real condition, that is, people experience gender incongruity? If so, you acknowledge that most people don't experience it. Those people's gender identity matches their natal sex. Because they don't experience an incongruity, they don't "notice" having a gender identity.

The issue then is, does this mismatch mean that they are women, or is it like someone who thinks they are Napoleon when they can't possibly be? GC critical feminists say the latter.

PerverseConverse But transwomen KNOW they are not women. They just want to be one. The genitals between their legs prove that they are not women so they can't know that they are a woman because biology proves otherwise.

So you that they are lying when they say they know they are women, rather than their definition is different to yours? That seems startlingly unlikely.

A good analogy is neurotypical and neuroatypical. For example, if your proprioception isnt' work, you certainly notice it, if it doesn't you might not even be aware you have it.

That is a very bad analogy because specific clinical criteria are used to diagnose people with conditions that are sometimes referred to as 'neuroatypical'.

DadJoke, you appear to have missed the whole point of the WHO definition. It says nothing about cis or trans.

Many, many, many people have adopted a few trappings of "gender" performance in order to have an easier life. That does not make me "cis," it makes me unwilling to put enormous energy into trying to hide my natal sex.

Stop trying to make out that those of us who are doing that are willingly colluding societal sexism.

rather than their definition is different to yours

It might be possible to make some headway in understanding alternative definitions of 'woman' if anyone would actually provide one.

Dadjoke, assuming from your username that you are male, please could you explain whether you identify as male, how that is different to somebody who identifies as female, and the qualities that you have in common with other people in the group 'male people'.

merrynouse
assuming from your username that you are male, please could you explain whether you identify as male, how that is different to somebody who identifies as female, and the qualities that you have in common with other people in the group 'male people'.

I don't identify as male, I am of the male sex. I don't suffer from gender incongruence, so I am not trans, and I a man (sex and gender). What I have in common with other male people is that I have XY chromosomes and various other primary and secondary sex characteristics. What I have in common with a transman is that we are men (gender). This is according to current medical and WHO defintions.

That is a very bad analogy because specific clinical criteria are used to diagnose people with conditions that are sometimes referred to as 'neuroatypical'.

Does this not apply to gender dysphoria, too? Is gender dysphoria not real because you don't experience it?

DadJoke
PerverseConverse But transwomen KNOW they are not women. They just want to be one. The genitals between their legs prove that they are not women so they can't know that they are a woman because biology proves otherwise.

So you that they are lying when they say they know they are women, rather than their definition is different to yours? That seems startlingly unlikely.

They are either lying when they say they are women or they are suffering delusions and therefore mental illness. Which seems the most likely?

Men with male genitals don't get to define what a woman is by renaming her to fit their own deluded mentality.

They are either lying when they say they are women or they are suffering delusions and therefore mental illness. Which seems the most likely?

You've omitted a third option, that they are women (gender). That is, they aren't woman by your definition, but they are by other definitions we've already discussed.

And you didn't answer my question. Do you think transwoman are lying about being women, or do you think they are deluded? Do you think gender dysphoric people from a very young age are liars?

What I have in common with a transman is that we are men (gender). This is according to current medical and WHO defintions.

As above the WHO definition says that gender is "Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men". Please could you explain what socially constructed characteristics you don't share with women and do share with transmit.

Does this not apply to gender dysphoria

There are diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. However, suffering from gender dysphoria means that you share characteristics with other people who suffer from gender dysphoria. It does not mean that you share any characterics with people of your non-natal sex.

Many people who are trans do not believe that gender dysphoria exists, and some people with gender dysphoria, while being more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex, would not in any way argue that they are in the same group as people of the opposite sex.

Misogyny isn’t a hate crime, but I’m sure I read somewhere if it were, then the percentages would equal all the others combined.
I know something like 2 women a week are killed by men they know in the UK, not sure what that is as a percentage, but it’s pretty high...

I also read a phrase that will never leave me.
‘A woman’s deepest fear is that a man will kill her.
A man’s deepest fear is that a woman will laugh at him’.

DadJoke how does "a child from a young age" know they are trans/in the wrong body?

Going back to the question in the thread title... it seems to me that a "right" trans people don't have is the right to self-ID as what they believe themselves to be... and have society treat them differently in accordance with that self-ID.

My thought on this is, erm no one has that right? Do they? For example I am autistic and as a result if my disability have some leverage to ask society to treat me differently in certain contexts e.g. work, health care etc. Lovely. I did not get to self-ID as autistic despite knowing I was for several years before seeking an official diagnosis. I had to go through a lengthy, and upsetting process of disecting my thoughts and behaviour in order to get a panel of experts to agree that I fit into the category of "autistic" AND RIGHTLY SO. It would be entirely unfair on other people to expect them to make adaptations purely on my say so. Especially adaptations that might put other people out in some way. Without any gatekeeping on the status of autism it becomes very unfair and could easily be abused.

Self ID would give trans people greater rights than other groups. And would be open to abuse. I don't understand how people cant see this.

Also even with my diagnosis I still don't have the right to march into Tesco and demand that everyone shut up so as not to trigger a meltdown...

Self ID would give trans people greater rights than other groups. And would be open to abuse. I don't understand how people cant see this.

And reduce rights and provisions for autistic people because a diagnosis would no longer have any value.

So, anyway, back to the OP.

They presently can't force their spouse to accept that they are going to legalise their crossdressing.
They presently can't stick a dress on on a Monday and have access to their escaped wife's place of refuge on Tuesday.
They can't gain automatic admittance to every single safe space for women and how dare women have spaces apart from them.

Think that covers it. Apologies for not putting a doily on the plate of truth there.

My rights.

As well as Men's Rights

As well as the rights for protection under the 'gender reassignment' provisions of the Equality Act.

And you didn't answer my question. Do you think transwoman are lying about being women, or do you think they are deluded? Do you think gender dysphoric people from a very young age are liars?

Depends on the trans person as to whether they are lying or not. Is Karen White a woman, DadJoke?