So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

DadJoke
Children (trans or otherwise) have a strong sense of their gender identity by the age of four. By that age, they know if they are boys or girls.

They do not have a sense of their 'gender identity' by this age, they know their sex. This is an important distinction, and one which repeatedly gets lost when people use 'gender' to mean 'sex'.

I discussed this with another poster previously on this thread. Like you, the other poster thought that the paper we were discussing proved that 'gender identity' was real and innate. It doesn't. It simply says that by the age of about 4, children usually know what sex they are and that their sex is fixed. Nothing to do with gender.

TransposersArePosers to be clear, you don't think dysphoria is primarily genetic?

Dad Joke I think if it was primarily genetic, there wouldn't be this massive increase in transgenderism in recent years. There may well be a genetic component to the genuine dysphoria cases, but if it is true in all trans people, why would some de-transition?

Or have I missed the point?

Gender dysphoria is similar to other dysphoric conditions, and have a similar, physical, root cause.

I think it is likely that the causes of gender dysphoria are similar to those people who, for example, think that one of their limbs doesn't belong to them. It doesn't mean that anyone is 'born in the wrong body'. It simply means that some people think there is something wrong with their healthy body.

What do you mean by a 'similar, physical, root cause'? Are you suggesting that their bodies are actually defective?

None of this speaks as to whether gender dysphoric people are women or not. If you are GC, they aren't; 4th wave feminists, most medical professionals, and human rights bodies would say they are.

What a bizarre statement. Gender dysphoric people who are born female and have grown to adulthood are women. I don't think anyone here would say otherwise. What makes you think that most medical professionals disagree with gender critical people?

Whether or not feelings of dysphoria are genetic has no bearing on whether somebody with dysphoria is correct in their belief that they share features that are unique to the opposite sex.

I think if it was primarily genetic, there wouldn't be this massive increase in transgenderism in recent years. There may well be a genetic component to the genuine dysphoria cases, but if it is true in all trans people, why would some de-transition?

I was confining myself to gender dysphoria in order to address the original question directed at me which was would trans children exist if there were no gender stereotypes? In other words, there is strong evidence that gender dysphoric (trans) children would exist regardless of whether there were gender stereotypes or not.

As to the more general case where there is no dysphoria, there are a number of possible explanations, and I don't know which are correct. For example, the acceptance and visiblity of transgender people has increased, so transgender people are more likely to "come out" as transgender, some people are being mis-diagnosed, or there there is some kind of social contagion.

What do you mean by a 'similar, physical, root cause'? Are you suggesting that their bodies are actually defective?

I meant the gender dysphoria has a physical, genetic cause, that's all. Whether you thing they are "defective" or not depends on whether you are a GC feminist or not.

Gender dysphoric people who are born female and have grown to adulthood are women. I don't think anyone here would say otherwise. What makes you think that most medical professionals disagree with gender critical people?

Now we are back to square one. As a GC feminist, you consider women to be "adult human female" and you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence; others disagree. That's what this whole debate is about. You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

merrymouse Whether or not feelings of dysphoria are genetic has no bearing on whether somebody with dysphoria is correct in their belief that they share features that are unique to the opposite sex.

Yes, I agree, as I stated above. However, it has a bearing on the question "would trans children exist if there were no gender stereotypes?"

Part of the problem is that without any definition of trans or gender it’s very difficult to pin down what anyone is talking about or generalise study results.

In other words, there is strong evidence that gender dysphoric (trans) children would exist regardless of whether there were gender stereotypes or not.

Without the existence of a control world where gender stereotypes don’t exist it’s very difficult to say that.

the others think woman = gender

Again, please could you explain the gender qualities shared by women and trans women that are not shared by men and trans men; and the gender qualities shared by men and trans women not shared by women and trans women.

Sorry, “Men and trans men”.

Basically if people honestly want to legally divide human beings along gender lines, why?

I think you need to be careful branding everyone with the same brush. I follow a few trans people on twitter who are just as outraged by the things happening as anyone else. One speaks out a lot about self identity as a horrible idea. She has spoken out about the cycling trans woman's win.

I think the reality is many trans woman are happy with the current system, it's not perfect but they accept it and speak out against much of tech issues Mumsnet discusses.

Of course there is another group who are never happy. That cyclist for example wasn't happy that one of her competitors didn't congratulate her, when she sent a tweet to apologise and congratulate her she rebuked her ... I can't remember what she actually said now, but she still wasn't happy with the apology. I think that's an example of how some people are never happy.

But it's not everyone, it's just so many are scared to speak up.

Without the existence of a control world where gender stereotypes don’t exist it’s very difficult to say that.

Can you think of any cultural changes which would stop any other form of dysphoria? That wouldn't change if there were no gender stereotypes (and I would love to be in a world where that were true). That's my analogy. I can't really persuade you if you don't agree with that line of reasoning.

Again, please could you explain the gender qualities shared by women and trans women that are not shared by men and trans men; and the gender qualities shared by men and trans women not shared by women and trans women.
Paraphrasing gender identity definitions of man and woman per a wide range of international bodies, all men share the quality of knowing they are men, and women know they are women.

Men who are gender incongruence are transmen, women who are gender incongruent are transwomen. Most men and most women are not gender incongruent.

I know you don't accept this definition, but there really isn't any point in asking for it again from me.

I know you don't accept this definition, but there really isn't any point in asking for it again from me

Unfortunately your definition doesn't have much practical purpose because it doesn’t accommodate people who don’t believe they have any gender (whether they are GC or believe they are agender or something else) and doesn’t accommodate people who suffer from gender dysphoria, have a GRC, but fully agree that they are their natal sex.

You then also need to explain the practical purpose of dividing people according to their individual beliefs about their gender.

Women have fought long and hard to be regarded as individuals, not controlled by concepts of gender. Where we need to be distinguished from men, it’s because of the clear practical unavoidable consequences of sex, not gender.

DadJoke
As a GC feminist, you consider women to be "adult human female" and you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence; others disagree. That's what this whole debate is about. You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Please don't try to tell me what I think. We'll get further if I tell you what I think and you tell me what you think.

In this case, your perception of what I think is wrong. You said: you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence. I have never said such a thing. I recognise that gender dysphoria exists. I have discussed this on here with actual sufferers of the condition, in an effort to better understand what it is.

I do not think the condition is best treated using powerful and irreversible medication and/or surgical intervention, unless all other avenues for relief of symptoms have been explored and been found ineffective.

I do not think that gender dysphoria is a normal variation of the human condition, like being gay or being left handed. People who are gay or left-handed do not require any medical treatment to 'cure' them, but simply require society to accept gay people and left-handed people. People suffering from gender dysphoria demand that they should receive medication to enable themselves to be 'their true self'.

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Well, yes. I'm just going by the definition which has served us well for hundreds, or even thousands of years. This is still how it is defined in modern dictionaries (adult female human). If you, and others, want to change the definition, then fine, see if you can change it - words do change their definitions over time. But what word do you propose we use for adult female humans if you have redefined 'woman' to mean something else? And what, exactly, will be your new definition of the word 'woman'?

What do you mean by a 'similar, physical, root cause'? Are you suggesting that their bodies are actually defective?

I meant the gender dysphoria has a physical, genetic cause, that's all. Whether you thing they are "defective" or not depends on whether you are a GC feminist or not.

My response was regarding gender dysphoria being similar to other dysphoric conditions, like the people who think one of their limbs doesn't belong to them. This is unrelated to being gender critical because in this instance I am not talking only about gender dysphoria, but also about the other group. So do you think that someone who thinks their left leg should not belong to them should have it amputated because their perception must reflect reality? That their body is actually defective because they have a leg that they think they shouldn't have?

What exactly do you mean by a physical root cause?

In other words, there is strong evidence that gender dysphoric (trans) children would exist regardless of whether there were gender stereotypes or not.

Where is this evidence?

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Some people think the world is flat. It doesn’t make it so.

Paraphrasing gender identity definitions of man and woman per a wide range of international bodies, all men share the quality of knowing they are men, and women know they are women.

Men know they are men because they have male bodies. Women know they are women because they have female bodies. A bit like children learning whether they're boys or girls as I mentioned earlier. HTH.

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

The meaning of the word woman is an adult of the female sex. We all know what a woman is and what the female sex is. Every single person who has existed on the planet came out of a woman.

It really is extraordinarily silly to try to claim that there is any other way of being a woman.

Can anyone (DadJoke?) explain why dysphoria about genitals needs to be treated with hormonal medication and perhaps genital surgery and breast removal or addition, but dysphoria about other parts of the body are treated by therapy and perhaps some psychiatric medication? Why do people with gender dysphoria have to get treatment that changes their body? Why not concentrate on helping them to accept themselves? Seems a bit unethical to me

You don’t seem to have been able to link to any of theses definitions or explained what relevance they have to U.K. law Dadjoke.

You have more or less said that some people believe they are apples, some people believe they are pears. If you don’t believe you are a pear you must be an apple, but the concept of apple and pear is subjective.

It’s easier to understand people talking about their star sign.

I understand the concept of gender as defined by the WHO and quoted earlier, but your definition seems completely circular and meaningless.

But what word do you propose we use for adult female humans if you have redefined 'woman' to mean something else? And what, exactly, will be your new definition of the word 'woman'?

I honestly don't see any point in providing the gender-based definition of woman yet again, but I'll try. And it's not "my" definition. I think the word "female" does the job you are looking for in most cases.

If you accept gender identity is real, then the definition of woman is straightforward - a person who knows they are a women. If you don't, then it's not going to make any sense.

For more on the widely-accepted concept of gender identity, I recommend this ECHR document, page 3. If you don't believe people can know they are men or women, and sometimes that doesn't match their body's sex, you'll never accept that transgender people should have the rights this whole thread was about - the right to be recognised as people who have their gender identity.

As a GC feminist, you consider women to be "adult human female" and you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence; others disagree. That's what this whole debate is about. You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Please don't try to tell me what I think. We'll get further if I tell you what I think and you tell me what you think.

I am sorry I mis-typified your position. Acknowledging that gender incongruence is real medical condition requires a person to acknowledge that gender identity is real (it means an incongruent gender identity). I didn't think GC feminists believed that gender identity was real, hence my assumption you didn't think GI was a real condition. See here.

DJ you literally have no word for the two basic units of human reproduction and you think you're in the right. Mkay.