So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

If you don't feel it, it simply means you don't suffer incongruence, in the same way it's unlikly you'll notice you have proprioception. "Identity" is a very poor term, really, it's more like knowledge. Do you know you are a woman? Your gender identity is "woman." That's the idea, anyway.
I know I am a woman, as I have a female body. Thats it. If I had a male body, I would be a man

I know 4 transgender people (I know of more, something in the water around here!) and their feelings vary.

The one I know the best was basically struggling with her transition to adulthood, family issues, an ultra sexualised twin and confusion with her sexuality. Four years on she has decided she is a she but is masculine in clothing choice and a lesbian.

My DD's good friend from early childhood however went to a private psychiatrist because the wait was several months for the nhs, they were suicidal (lost a parent young, struggling with puberty), but hadn't considered gender to any of our knowledge, and was fast tracked onto blockers then testosterone at 16, they seem happy but I'm very concerned that private psychiatrists are a bit too keen to offer treatment to children especially when it's a healthy monthly income from counselling and prescription charges!

I'm guessing each person has their own reasons but I struggle with the exponential increase in the last 10 years. There's always been a few, but not 4 in one high school!

DrizzledWombat

I think that this vague hand-waving happens because the honest gender-identity-based definition of "woman" is actually fundamentally sex-based instead

I totally agree. Your comment sums up the whole definition discussion. This thread went into detail recently and demonstrates that point well, I think.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296479-Alternative-Definitions-of-Woman?pg=1&messages=100

I'll say it again. They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity

My neighbour identifies as a 5 year old. He wants the right to attend reception class with all the other 5 year olds.
My sister doesn't feel comfortable with her working legs. She is happier in a wheelchair. She wants the right to use the disabled space on the bus.
Neither of them have this right. Should they?

I'll say it again. They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity

That's not equal rights, that's extra rights, more than anyone else has.

It’s not clear why the law would recognise gender (as opposed to sex) at all.

It’s another one on the list of things that nobody seems to be able to explain.

Yes, Merrymouse. Every so often I just shake my head at the insanity of it all. Separating spaces on the basis of gender makes as much sense as separating them by star sign.

If we lived in a non gendered society, trans people wouldn't have a case for trying to assert their chosen gender. But our society is very gendered and gender and sex are conflated.

My ideal would be for sex differences to be distinguished where differences relating to sexed bodies and reproductive role are relevant and beyond that for all to be treated as human. However, we are a long way off that and I can see how formally recognising gender as being fluid and existent for some and not for others could serve to accelerate the process of uncoupling gender and sex and eradicating sex stereotyping.

Legislating for it, on the other hand, turns the legislating state into a theocracy. Up with this, I, a* person of faith, do not wish to put.*

The state has no business mandating belief.

Materialist's post sums the issue up perfectly.

we are a long way off that and I can see how formally recognising gender as being fluid and existent for some and not for others could serve to accelerate the process of uncoupling gender and sex and eradicating sex stereotyping

I agree that we live in a gendered society, but wouldn’t it be better to create laws that prevent organisations from enforcing gender needlessly e.g. gendered dress codes?

If gender is recognised in law what exactly is being recognised? That discriminatory practices based on stereotypes are acceptable?

It’s not clear why the law would recognise gender (as opposed to sex) at all.

I like the solution proposed by Rosa Freedman and Rosemary Auchmuty here
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

Two separate categories, sex and gender.

Everything seems to be back to front. As far as I can see an organisation can prevent a man from wearing a skirt as long as they don’t identify as female.

My ideal would be for sex differences to be distinguished where differences relating to sexed bodies and reproductive role are relevant and beyond that for all to be treated as human.

I agree with this. But if people want to have a 'gender' they could, but it shouldn't override sex.

I still can't think of an instance when gender needs to be recognised in law. If there isn't a clear, practical reason to discriminate on the grounds of sex, isn't the discrimination just plain sexist?

The right to have the world see you as you want to be perceived isn't a 'right', it is narcissism. Material reality isn't something to be legislated out of existence.

Just to be clear - not typing to flame anyone but I think some consideration goes a long way

From transactivists to women? That's what you surely mean.

Yes becky but no consideration is forthcoming is it?

Great discussion, for the most part.

Almost 400 messages and I have yet to see a post arguing that there are rights that transpeople don't have.

You wont.
I have asked this question on twitter for 2 years and not once has anyone listed the rights TP do not already have.

They haven't yet won the right to STOP 33 million females from being recognised as a legal and biological group.

I think that's the right they want.

They're not actually fighting for an extra right for themselves.
They're opposed to the right that biological females have to be recognised as a sex.

They're fighting to dismantle one of our rights.

What Barracker said.

It would be easier to consider the rights that trans people don’t already have if anyone could list what they are.

Will this right be rolled to other group? Children and trans children, disabled and trans disabled? If not, why not? Why would one group get to control other peoples language?

Precisely, Barrack. What the current TRA push actually is is a campaign to remove the rights of women (to free assembly, to hold views that some men don't like, to have sex segregated spaces so we don't have to be naked around male humans who we'd rather not be naked around, to choose a female HCP for certain types of medical care, to female only social clubs and schools and university colleges, to female only sports categories, to choose same sex sexual partners without being bullied into "considering" opposite sex partners too).

Nobody has the right (or indeed even the ability) to force other people to see them as they want to be seen. This is not a cosmic injustice, it's just reality.