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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl guiding email to parents.

677 replies

Wildboar · 25/09/2018 18:36

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

OP posts:
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AngryAttackKittens · 28/09/2018 08:00

Precisely. And the number of girls who're Muslim or part of another religious group that doesn't allow mixed sex spaces impacted is much larger than the potential number of "transgirls" interested in joining the Guides.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2018 08:06

The Woke are White.

hackmum · 28/09/2018 08:20

And, I am sorry to bang on about this, but the willingness to throw Muslim girls under a bus is staggering!

The other day we were discussing the Posie Parker billboard story, and one of my FB friends said she thought it was right that it was taken down because Posie was Islamophobic. Ignoring for a moment the twisted logic that says that if a person whose views you don't like on one subject should therefore be banned from expressing views on any other topic, this person seemed blissfully oblivious to the fact that self-ID would have an enormously detrimental impact on Muslim women and girls.

Self-ID is Islamophobia in action - it's not making remarks that Muslims might find offensive, it is actually making it harder for Muslims to engage in social and public activities.

hackmum · 28/09/2018 08:21

Sorry about the convoluted sentence above - remove the word "if" and it kind of makes sense.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2018 08:33

Self-ID is Islamophobia in action - it's not making remarks that Muslims might find offensive, it is actually making it harder for Muslims to engage in social and public activities.

Yes. It's its worse than that. It then gets to blame Islam for The Woke's lack of practical support for encouraging a functioning multi cultural society. Whilst claiming inclusivity.

R0wantrees · 28/09/2018 08:43

A legal analysis:
'The saga of Girlguiding UK and the Equality Act exemptions'

(extract)
GirlGuiding UK appeared yesterday to confirm that the effect of their new trans inclusive policy is to exclude trans boys, who should be “expected… to move on” from the organisation. Whether trans boys would or would not, in practice, wish to remain Guides is beyond the scope of this blog, which is looking solely at the law here.

GirlGuiding UK holds itself out as a single sex organisation – that is, one which invokes the single sex exemptions permitted under the Equality Act 2010 (EqA). Such exemptions are permissible, as long as exclusion of members of the opposite sex is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

This is generally simple, until the effect of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is also taken into account. GGUK, in common with many other organisations, seem to think that as soon as someone proposes gender reassignment (and thereby gains the protected characteristic of gender reassignment) they should be treated as though they have already acquired the protected characteristic of their preferred sex. In common language, that as soon as a male says they are female, they must be treated as a female, and as soon as a female says they are male, they must be treated as a male.

This is not what the law says. The law says that it is impermissible to discriminate against someone due to a protected characteristic (save for when it is necessary, back to our legitimate aims). Once someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) they become a member of their acquired sex “for all purposes” and therefore gain the protected characteristic of their new sex. Prior to getting a GRC, their legal sex remains their original sex. None of this, of course, materially affects how someone moves through the world in terms of their expression and presentation, and nor should it.

There are few cases which deal with this, but support can be found in the comments of HHJ Richardson QC in R (Green) v Secretary of State for Justice [2013] EWHC 3491 (Admin) at §66 – 70, and in MB v SSWP (RP) [2013] UKUT 290 (AAC) at §47. Protected characteristic of membership of a sex is restricted to those who share it by birth or by acquisition of a GRC.

Of course, children at Guides will not have a GRC, because they are too young to acquire one. So the legal sex of children entering or leaving Guides will be their birth sex, although they may also have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment." (continues)

"I have also seen it suggested online that it is somehow illegal for the Guides to allow male children with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment into their group. It is not. They can have whatever admissions process they like, as long as they can justify any arising discrimination, and it is perfectly legal for them to have a single gender, but mixed sex, organisation. If that is the case then they would need to make it clear that they are not in fact a single sex organisation, as this may affect the decisions of some parents to permit their child to join. Those parents may well have protected characteristics of their own in relation to, for example, religion, or have other more personal reasons for wanting their daughter only in single sex spaces, such as themselves or their daughter having experienced male violence. No doubt the Guides have considered this already." (continues)

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2018/09/27/38/

R0wantrees · 28/09/2018 08:53

...

Girl guiding email to parents.
OldCrone · 28/09/2018 10:00

Thanks for the link to the legalfeminist blog, R0wantrees. It's very clear about what the guides can and can't do, and how the law works.

This bit is also important:
The Guides policy is now that a female child who does have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment would be expected to move on, while a male child who also has that protected characteristic must be admitted.

This seems to be a total inversion of the purpose of the EqA exemptions. A male child who does have the protected characteristic would not be discriminated against, legally, if that child is treated no differently to the male child who does not. Whereas a female child who is expected to leave, purely because of having that protected characteristic, is being treated very differently on the basis of gender reassignment to other female children who do not have that protected characteristic.

It could also be argued that since a male child with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is admitted, then one without that protected characteristic is being discriminated against if he is not also allowed to join.

Did anyone who was involved in drafting the Equality Act legislation actually give any thought to the interaction betweent the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment, or was it just left to be interpreted by a court at a later date in a discrimination case?

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2018 11:29

or was it just left to be interpreted by a court at a later date in a discrimination case?

This.

stillathing · 28/09/2018 12:54

As they are a charity do they receive any government funding?

MaybeDoctor · 28/09/2018 14:03

Thank you for acknowledging my post Fermats and Still.

My issue is with the ‘swiss cheese’ factor of volunteers managing multiple risk factors, especially when a risk is concealed/hidden. The risk from, er, traditional perverts and groomers who might be drawn to groups of girls hasn’t gone away in the meantime.

CharlieParley · 28/09/2018 14:45

WittyName4 AmyRhodes I wouldn't waste your breath. You're not alone and the world is changing for the better and becoming more tolerant of all people but when you're up against the internet echo chamber any dissent is ganged up upon, beaten down and drowned out. Luckily the real world is out there and is a much more pleasant place.

Oops. Sorry to burst your bubble but 82% of the population agree with us that self-id should not be allowed. So you might want to reconsider who is in an echo chamber and who isn't.

LemonJello · 28/09/2018 15:12

I had an email from EHRC this morning to say that GG are revising their policy with assistance from EHRC.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 28/09/2018 15:14

I had an email from EHRC this morning to say that GG are revising their policy with assistance from EHRC.

This is brilliant!

Ereshkigal · 28/09/2018 15:17

I'll be interested to see what they do.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 28/09/2018 15:22

It's a step forward whatever they do, the GG have accepted their Guidlines are currently not acceptable in their current form and are now at least trying to balance things.
Before this it was shut up, keep secret and firing anyone who has anything to say about it.

It's a step, Steps are good.

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2018 15:25

I had an email from EHRC this morning to say that GG are revising their policy with assistance from EHRC.

So where does this leave the leaders who whistleblew and got kicked out in the process??

LemonJello · 28/09/2018 15:27

We will have to wait and see what the outcome is on a policy revision, but EHRC consider the issue important and said they are involved with GG to try and address the concerns.

LemonJello · 28/09/2018 15:29

So where does this leave the leaders who whistleblew and got kicked out in the process??

Hopefully with some recourse. But who knows.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 28/09/2018 15:33

With any luck they will have cases for wrongful dismissal.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/09/2018 15:36

That could mean anything though.

GG goes mixed sex
No way will they change back to cunty poeple only
May update safeguarding to take into account OBVIOUS safeguarding issues
COULD mean the EHRC decides also on some bizarre interpretation of the law where girls can be discriminated against on the basis of religious belief, transgender ID, and boys are definitely girls.

I hope not but you never know >> could turn out that they've appointed pips bunce and jess bradley to advise them for eg with the former saying that girls are girly and need girly only groups to giggle and stand like i'm a little teapot, and jess advising that sex offences are a "people problem" and further that they shouldn't be slut shaming any healthy expressions of public dick centred sexuality amongst the girls.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/09/2018 15:38

Their own dicks that means :D

Jess Bradly is the prominitent trans activist who likes wanking their cock at bus stops and is so cavalier about it that they post about it on their own public blog along with a bunch of other dodgy (illegal) stuff.

LemonJello · 28/09/2018 15:41

That could mean anything though.

Yes.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 28/09/2018 15:43

But it means there's room to budge.
If it happens once it can happen again.
And so on.

Chocolala · 28/09/2018 15:45

They will still be liked out because GG blamed their postings on social media. GG will not want to apologise AT ALL, so will continue to pretend that the two leaders were not whistleblowers who were ignored by GG such that the only way to get the message out was to post on social media.

Frankly, GG has behaved appalling.

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