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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl guiding email to parents.

677 replies

Wildboar · 25/09/2018 18:36

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

OP posts:
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Wildboar · 25/09/2018 18:37

Discover, Grow The fortnight in focus
Important update

A message to all our members, parents and carers
Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy
In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.
Amanda Medler
Chief Guide
Ruth Marvel
Acting Chief Executive

OP posts:
Bostin · 25/09/2018 18:38

‘It does not’

Well that’s ok then.

Wilhelminawonka · 25/09/2018 18:41

Wow I'm angry now.
Just recieved this email and have texted various local leaders etc to see if they knew.
My exh is similarly galvanized.
I am bloody furious at the gaslighting shit in that email

gendercritter · 25/09/2018 18:41

I wonder what the email that gets sent out post a guide becoming pregnant or being sexually assaulted will look like

PerfectPenquins · 25/09/2018 18:41

Ive just posted it on the other guiding thread, ive emailed asking what specifically would happen if girls felt uncomfortable sharing a tent with a male bodied person. Shall see what they respond

YeTalkShiteHen · 25/09/2018 18:42

Well bang goes DD starting Rainbows.

ILuvBirdsEye · 25/09/2018 18:42

Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way. your young members are girls.... GIRLS... you know... cunty people.

FermatsTheorem · 25/09/2018 18:47

As I said on the other thread, that email is 913 words long and says nothing of any substance.

When in fact what parents want is a one word answer:

"Can you guarantee that children with vulvas will be separated from children with penises in sleeping accommodation, communal changing rooms and showers? Yes or no?"

Not rocket science, not 913 words of meaningless verbiage, just a yes/no answer. Then parents can make their own minds up.

SwiftNC · 25/09/2018 18:48

I've just read my email too - I'll be responding in detail asking lots of further questions because that email is utter bullshit.

BewareOfDragons · 25/09/2018 18:48

Get a fucking grip.

They're doing the right thing.

But way to try to make children and young people who are already struggling with their identify feel even more different and unwanted than they already feel.

And, yes, my DD is a Brownie. And, no, I wouldn't have a problem if a boy who truly believed he was meant to be a girl became a Brownie. I would hope he would be made to feel welcome and safe, just like the other children who go.

YeTalkShiteHen · 25/09/2018 18:49

BewareOfDragons and a person with a penis sharing a tent with your DD at Brownie Camp would be fine with you would it?

YeTalkShiteHen · 25/09/2018 18:50

Sorry an adult with a penis that should have said. Because this shite applies to the leaders too,

SlimDogMillionaire · 25/09/2018 18:50

Urgh. I got a few paragraphs down and couldn't bear to carry on.

It does not 😐

80something % who took the survey don't think transgender should be discriminated against. Er duh of course not. Most people are NOT bigots. Most people ARE concerned about safeguarding.

Why don't these people at GG get what the issue is? It's like they're standing on a hill flapping their mouths open and shut robotically repeating 'we're not transphobic, we're not transphobic'

Fucking pile of toss

ileclerc · 25/09/2018 18:50

Does this apply to the leaders or just the children?

JennyHolzersGhost · 25/09/2018 18:52

“We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.”

I am an organisation with experience of supporting transgender children and young people, you are a pressure group, they are an online rabble.
GrinGrinGrin

But seriously though, what is the difference between the first two, really? Other than that a pressure group is a support organisation that you don’t agree with?

YeTalkShiteHen · 25/09/2018 18:53

ileclerc both apparently. There’s a thread just now where an OP isn’t happy that she hasn’t been told a biological male is going to be treated as a woman and parents aren’t going to be told.

FermatsTheorem · 25/09/2018 18:53

Beware, again, as I said on one of the other threads, if GG had said "Look, children with gender dysphoria who think they may be trans have a pretty shitty hand dealt to them. They need support. We want to include them, because getting them off tumblr and into RL activities in the outdoors will probably be beneficial to them. But we're going to keep sleeping accommodation and showers single sex, because we also have a duty of care towards natal girls.." I would have thought "Okay, I don't buy into trans ideology, I still think it's fundamentally incoherent, but this is a compromise I can live with."

But GG haven't said this. They've said "transgirls are girls, we're going to put them in overnight accommodation with the rest of the girls, we're going to put them in the same changing and showering facilities as the rest of the girls and what's more, we're not going to tell the parents we're doing this."

That's the bit that's utterly unacceptable.

Redkeyboard · 25/09/2018 18:56

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

So what, Girl Guides message to their girls is: if you don't let us allow men and boys into your tents and showers and hide it from your parents you are discriminating against them?

Fuck that.

SlimDogMillionaire · 25/09/2018 18:57

Yes do answer bewareofdragons would also love to hearbhow you think you'd feel about the tent sharing when your DD moves up to Guides and her 14 year old self feels uncomfortable. But hey as long as the one with the penis feels welcome that's ok? Maybe by the time this girl with a penis gets to Guides and puberty (if not on blockers by then) starts to feel confused about her identity and maybevwants to try her penis out on your DD. How about that?

Melamin · 25/09/2018 18:58

And, yes, my DD is a Brownie. And, no, I wouldn't have a problem if a boy who truly believed he was meant to be a girl became a Brownie. I would hope he would be made to feel welcome and safe, just like the other children who go.

You wouldn't know any of that. You would not know about the boy at all, never mind if he thought he was truly a girl (how can you know that). And it wouldn't just be in the Brownies - it would be Guides or Rangers too.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 25/09/2018 19:00

Oh well, that's fine if Dragon is ok with disregarding safeguarding we're all good to go.

Why do the NSPCC recommend that siblings of opposite sex do not share a bedroom after 10?
Why are single sex toilets in schools a legal requirement?
Have you read about the appalling number of rapes occurring in school?

Personally, I believe my sons are no threat to any little girls. But would I be offended if other parents didn't want them to see their adolescent daughters in the shower? Clearly not. Would I demand that they have a right to share sleeping arrangements with girls. Definitely not.

There is a mixed sex organization called the scouts with a very good trans policy. This is nothing to do with poor little vulnerable children, its about validation and eroding women's boundaries.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 19:03

Parents need to be informed if GG are going to put their daughters in mixed sex sleeping accommodation and showers.

It's really very simple. Pretending that is totally normal safeguarding is utterly disgraceful and tone deaf.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 25/09/2018 19:04

BewareOfDragons

How old are Brownies? About 8?

I think you are imagining a boy about the same age as you dd joining brownies and running about with them, just like school.

Now imagine at your dd is teenage and the trans member is teenage too, are you still going to be thrilled when they go on sleepovers?

Redkeyboard · 25/09/2018 19:04

Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

No, no they don't ensure this because risk assessment is impossible in an organisation like yours which expels whistleblowers asking questions about the massive obvious holes in your safeguarding practice.

There is NO situation in which your policy should allow a boy or man to be put in a girl's tent without both her and her parents knowledge and informed consent.

FloralBunting · 25/09/2018 19:05

Presumably by the time Beware's daughter turns 14, she will have been sufficiently conditioned to do what she's told and not make a fuss if she's uncomfortable with a male body around when she's naked. 'Cos that's the forward-thinking, inclusive thing to do.