Girl guiding email to parents.

[Wildboar]

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

No, it’ll stay GirlGuides for TRAs.

Because gender non-confirming kids or gender queer kids (or whatever the ‘correct’ term might be for children who do not identify with their natal sex) could already join a missed sex trans inclusionary unit. With Scouting.

It’s the validation that you ARE a girl/woman that is appealing.

Fucking gender bollocks. It really all is regressive.

I haven't read the full thread, apologies if someone has said this already.. but.

I have a little.girl, she's turning 6 soon..
It's my job to protect her childhood and safeguard her against dangers.
Not all dangers, some I have to accept.. falling off bikes, out of trees, rolling down hills etc. Those risks, I know the chances of injury and make an informed decision.
What guides are doing that terrifies me is they are potentially putting girls at risk without telling parents and removing their right to an informed decision.
I know that not all trans people are dangerous, that goes without saying, but not all dogs bite either but I'm still wary around those i dont know.

I have a horrible feeling that something truly awful is going to have to happen before guide wake up and realise what they're doing.

For now, my daughter will go nowhere near them. Without all the info, I can't make a risk assessment and an informed decision.

“we do allow volunteers’ [male] family members to attend residential events. Such requests are carefully considered by the local commissioner and as a part of the mandatory risk assessment or any trips. However this same process would not apply to a trans girl as this would be a breach of the Equality Act.”

So that sounds to me like they risk assess adults with a penis but not minors with a penis because they feel that risk assessing minors with a penis would breach the equality act!?

I’m not sure it does breach the equality act. Can anyone confirm this?

There’s provision for single sex toilets in schools.........and that’s not a breach of the equality act.

So it sounds like GirlGuiding are perfectly prepared to not risk assess and therefore put girls at risk.

missed sex = mixed sex

@BewareOfDragons

And, yes, my DD is a Brownie. And, no, I wouldn't have a problem if a boy who truly believed he was meant to be a girl became a Brownie. I would hope he would be made to feel welcome and safe, just like the other children who go.

That is fantastic news. Now, can you explain how you tell the difference between a boy who truly believes that, and a boy who doesn't and is just trying to get an eyeful or worse?

And can you tell that when you don't even know that the boy is there?

And when you can't even say 'hang on, this boy is not truly deeply trans' as you would be called a bigot?

I mean, you are basically putting your daughter forward for this without her knowledge or being able to make an informed choice.

Nico no, it means they risk assess minors with a penis if they identify as boys. Minors with a penis who identify as girls can’t be risk assessed according to GG, as this contravenes the Equality Act.

Except of course it doesn’t. I wrote to EHRC and they told me GG were wrong.

What Girl guiding do not get or acknowledge is that they have not once thought about seeking the girls consent. There was no consultation with them. The message is shut up and put up, and totally disempowers girls and teaches them passive acceptance of males and male feelings. My concern is not simply what happens in a tent, it's what happens in a thousand and one other events during their lives when their ability to assert themselves will be so important, not just with males but with the pressure from whole organisations and authorities to accept stuff that they shouldn't have to eg sexual harassment at work. I worked in an awful situation in my 20s and everyone including other women told me to shut up and not complain if I knew what was good for my career. Girlguides has said loudly and plainly to girls 'shut up and put up, your fears are imaginary and you've got the problem so chill'. That message is the message that's repeated over and over to girls and women. Everything that GG stands for is destroyed by this. My children have left guides but I would pull them out now not just through fear of an immediate threat at a camp, but because of this appalling and dangerous message of 'shut up, a boys feelings are more important and you're being a silly old fashioned prude'. Just feel so depressed that we're losing years and years of progress here. Thank you if you made it to the end of this diatribe. Just needed to scream!

Totally agree with you Ugggg

Oh dear.

And re the misunderstanding of the Equality Act, that would surely ring alarm bells that your legal advice was shady. But still they stand by it

Spot on NoSquirrels.

This is totally about validation. There is nothing stopping a trans girl being in the Scouts as it's mixed sex.

The Girl Guides should be challenged on this point specifically.

Part of what I take from this, and I think it's pretty important, is that Gendered Intelligence or whoever else has been advising the Guides is lying to them about what the law requires. Surely there are potentially consequences that can be invoked for that. Are these orgs charities? Because if so that seems a pretty good reason to revoke that status.

@BertrandRussell - that's what I want to know too. Where I live, huge numbers of the girls in GG are Muslim. They'll effectively be prevented from attending at all.

My daughter is never joining the Guides now and my son, were he decide to identify as a girl, is also not joining as it would not be fair on the girls

Agree ugggg
But sadly some of these girls will have already been groomed by the organisations that come into schools and teach them that humans can change sex, there are pink and blue brains, and very little difference between a clitoris and a penis.

”So by changing from a single sex organisation to a single gender organisation, they're being inclusionary to trans girls. The necessary corollary of that is they're being exclusionary to trans boys.”

”So, a subset of female children miss out on the fantastic experiences offered in GG.”

”Isn't it funny that whichever way you cut the gender cake, it's female people who get the shittiest, smallest slice.”

Totally agree with this^^

Well that email read like a big #nodebate/naff off to anyone remotely GC/concerned about girls safeguarding.

Well done GG you really have lost sight of what your organisation was meant to be about. I wonder how far reaching their inclusivity will go? Men who identify as being 8 year old little girls? It would be bigoted not to surely?

Where I live, huge numbers of the girls in GG are Muslim. They'll effectively be prevented from attending at all.

Ah but who cares about them, we have to put the feelings of the other 'girls' first. After all there aen't any other group out there who could possibly cater for a trans child... i've scouted around the internet and can't find any clubs that they could join to beaver away at those badges.

This whole “case by case” basis thing makes me so MAD.

I know a fair few gender non-conforming/queer/non binary people in my general circle of acquaintances. Some have transitioned in a commonly understood sense to live full time as the ‘opposite sex’, some it’s not so clear cut.

Regardless of what risk I personally ascribe to these particular people (none, as it happens), changing safeguarding rules on a case by case basis is the short road to safeguarding failures.

It’s too easy for people to NOT stick their heads above the parapet (Savile et al). GG have just demonstrated what they’ll do to people raising safeguarding concerns - no protection for whistleblowers. It’s too easy to be influenced as an individual on a case by case basis. Every argument becomes about that ONE person you’re denying an opportunity. You’re asking individuals to risk assess. It’s poor policy.

There are perfectly good reasons for blanket rules sometimes.

I might not be using my phone camera inappropriately in a nursery setting, but they )people with ulterior motives) might. I should respect being told I can’t take my phone camera out EVEN IF I MEANT NO HARM. Because it’s the greater good, safeguarding-wise. No one is questioning my INDIVIDUAL motives - they’re just saying those are the rules for everyone (and here’s why if you need the background information). You can feel a bit affronted as an individual but you can respect the rationale behind the rules anyway, and be grateful someone stood up for safeguarding.

It’s the same principle.

is that Gendered Intelligence or whoever else has been advising the Guides is lying to them about what the law requires.

As I mentioned earlier, they've been "ahead of the law" since 2015/16 when the government commissioned them to produce a set of guidelines for employers and one for service providers, to placate the trans lobby who didn't quite get what they wanted after the Maria Miller Inquiry and Report (non binary recognition and removal of all sex based exemptions for GRC holders)

“We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people."

So completely one-sided because of course those support groups have a particular agenda.

What about groups (not themselves) which support girls and women, and know what the definition of female is?

It’s the same principle.

It is. The case by case thing is such bullshit and it's an interpretation of the law.

It's so frustrating how so many organisations seem unable to interpret the Equality Act. I don't understand why they refuse to understand it properly; it's really quite straightforward.

Urgh! I don’t actually have any other words right now.

I feel I need to respond to the email but I need time to properly formulate a response. I’m too angry right now and I want to make sure my response is clear, unemotional and absolutely to the point.

I need to raise not just the issue at hand, but also the handling of it (i.e. that any dissenting voices are simply silenced and gaslit - what a way to teach girls that their voice matters in this world, eh?! )

Exemptions for males without GRC should work in exactly the same way as excluding any other male.

Oh Uggg YY. Put up and shut up. Don’t question things. This is how it works. You know things won’t turn out well if you make a fuss...