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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's with all the transgender hate?

304 replies

Tiggy82 · 22/09/2018 23:23

I'm new to this and have been looking at the feminism chat and there seems to be so much hate and fear about transgender people! What's that about? And apparently you can't be a feminist and be accepting of transgender people, that just seems ludicrous to me, surely feminism is about equality, I am not pretending to be particularly knowledgeable on the trans subject, but i do think having equality for transgender people is nothing but a positive thing. Has anyone actually been personally negatively affected by a transgender person? Or is it all a theoretical fear?

OP posts:
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Lazypoolday · 23/09/2018 02:58

trans gender people are at least as vulnerable if not more so than 'cis' women

They really aren't. Look up the statistics rather than parroting nonsense

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/09/2018 04:14

emm one of those threads again trying to put words in our mouths

bd67th · 23/09/2018 04:18

Has anyone actually been personally negatively affected by a transgender person?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3371515-Man-in-Dress-listed-as-Top-100-FEMALE-Executives The woman who should have been on this list of top 100 female execs, but wasn't because Philip Bunce took her place, has been negatively affected by a genderfluid male who is deemed to be under the trans umbrella.

I don't think a single person on this board would have a problem with a top 100 trans execs list, nor with Philip Bunce being on such a list. But he has taken a spot from a woman and that we do object to.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 23/09/2018 04:22

Welcome to MN tiggy.
Can I suggest that instead of assuming hate and insulting us, take the time to carefully read through the linked threads, get over your knee jerk 'but be nice!' reaction and actually engage with the content. Then, come back and try again. Please do. We welcome proper debate and discussion, be prepared to hold your own though. We care about women and children and facts and logic. Not feelz and niceties.

PeakPants · 23/09/2018 06:01

OP why don’t you ask yourself this:

Why does ‘accepting trans people’ suddenly and automatically translate into saying they are literally the opposite sex rather than supporting them in other ways? Why is it anti-trans to suggest that trans people should have their own shortlists, sports categories and spaces? It would be possible to have eg trans prisons or prison wings. Why is the movement based so rigidly on reinforcement of a binary of male and female? Why is it hateful to point out that people born female might have different experiences and needs to people born male but identitying as female?

If you can give some answers to those questions, that might help you to conceptualise this issue more clearly. It’s not about hating trans people- it’s about protecting women.

differentnameforthis · 23/09/2018 06:12

Yawn

exLtEveDallas · 23/09/2018 06:41

God I love you women.

Bewarethesealions · 23/09/2018 06:45

Welp. Take a nice cup of tea or something, and maybe read around here a bit?

throws you a fish

DriftingLeaves · 23/09/2018 06:50

I misunderstood your thread title.

I thought you meant why do Trans women hate real women? I think it's because we are what they can never be. I don't hate them, though. feel sorry that they can never be comfortable in their skin. It must be very stressful.

NotZenEnough · 23/09/2018 07:20

Tiggy82 there are lots of resources available to get you up to speed on this. I felt the same as you about a month ago and I stumbled upon a post on twitter about the way the Green Party has been hijacked by trans rights activists, with Aimee Challenor seemingly at the helm. I'm not sure how much you'll get on that by simply googling because the story has been under reported. Look on here or on twitter if you want more info but it is awful, and indicative of how Trans Rights Activists are infiltrating policy and undermining safeguarding for women and children in many different places.

This isn't about hatred of trans people, far from it, as you say trans people are also vulnerable and definitely need protection and care, and the freedom to live as they choose. This is about protecting girls and women's spaces and safeguarding for children. The only way to effectively do this is to ensure that only biological women are legally classed as women.

For starters, I suggest this is a good listen. This is Posie Parker speaking to Stephanie Davies Arai, the founder of the No More Page 3 campaign.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=3h0cM1OANL8

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 07:28

OP: What's this all about?

Us: This

OP: But I've never experienced this

Us: Here's the evidence

OP: I can't be arsed to read that

Us: I see. Here's more evidence

OP: Whatevs

Us: How about you answer some our our questions

OP: No

Us: We see you love

SophoclesTheFox · 23/09/2018 07:29

Cracking work, mamarylis!

It might give tiggy some food for thought, but if it doesn’t then there’s always the lurkers.

Turph · 23/09/2018 07:29

CrackpotsArePots
Spot on.

KataraJean · 23/09/2018 07:34

I started posting on FWR in about 2011; because I was struggling with coercive control in my marriage. It was a board full of eloquent women who debated all sorts on things from prostitution and pornography, through abortion and reproductive rights to every day domestic matters and why who cleans the toilet matters.

The first threads on trans issues came in 2012 if I am correct when the rad fem conference at Conway Hall was targeted by protestors in advance for not allowing transwomen in.

Bearing in mind that the OP is not likely to be reading further, and I am tired, I will keep it short.

As the trans activist campaigns (attacks?) on women’s venues and opinions increased, so did the threads on here.

So Germaine Greer was no-platformed for saying that men could not become women and #nodebate. There was Maria Miller’s report (in which incidentally, prison officers expressed concerns about the number of sex offenders identifying as trans). There were transwomen campaigning against very experienced women and ousting them in their public and political positions for transphobia. As these incidences multiplied, so did the threads on here.

And the issues to discuss ranged from ‘gender non-confirming’ men seeking access to changing rooms in Top Shop (beloved of teenage girls) to schools affirming ‘gender identity’ choices and allowing male born children to change with female born children to the issues surrounding whether transwomen should lead girl guiding groups and whether transboys should be allowed in and the safe guarding issues this raises. All issues which one would expect to be discussed on a parenting forum because they affect children and young people.

So if there is an explosion of trans topics, it is because of the number of things which need to be discussed - and the #nodebate predominance elsewhere. If a parenting board cannot discuss these issues, where then? (And MNHQ have come under relentless attack for allowing this discussion to happen)

But it does not stop at our concern about the implications for children and young people (and I realise I have not mentioned hormones and breastbinding and the long term on fertility and health for young people at all, surely that is an issue worth discussion, so yes, more threads).

But I was going to move on to students who are being advised by the NUS to be positive to self-ID (and in reality have it anyway). Never mind that one of the directors -a transwoman - turned out to have a penchant for getting his willy out and posing for photos in his NUS office and more dodgy stuff. These are the thought-leaders of the future.

And their teachers (academics) who offer critical thinking and discuss the issues surrounding the very rights the OP says she is egalitarian about are subject to online abuse and campaigns to have them sacked.

And what about the politicians who might be expected to raise questions about these issues. If they hold critical views, they are scared to raise them. Or unwilling. The Speaker of the House of Commons refused to allow questions in Parliament on Karen White.

But it is not only that a convicted rapist was allowed in a women’s prison by identifying as a woman (whatever that means), it is worse than that (if that is possible). A man on bail for raping and torturing a ten year old (whilst wearing adult nappies and a dress) was engaged as an election agent for a candidate in the Green Party (who happened to be his daughter and a transwoman).

So if there has been an explosion, nay an obsession, with trans topics, it is because of the increase in things to talk about (both in number and awfulness).

And in that, the people who are gender dysphoric and the old-fashioned transsexuals lose out too. So yes, what of their rights, being unwittingly mixed up in all of this? Some also post on MN and a number talk in the media but I bet many just get on with their lives. No-one here hates them or does not want them to be equal. The concerns relate to how to facilitate their comfort and well-being in society without eroding the safe space and hard won rights of women.

And yes, it is to the detriment of all those topics which were there seven years ago. Because that is how coercive control works - all your energies are taken up responding to the controller so that you cannot attend to the issues which are important to you.

But you have no choice but to attend to and resist the controller if you want to get out of the situation and back to freedom and autonomy.

SophoclesTheFox · 23/09/2018 07:38

Great post, katara!

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 07:39

KataraJean

Your post will help the lurkers understand Flowers

Redkeyboard · 23/09/2018 07:45

Great post Katara

HandsOffMyRights · 23/09/2018 07:59

Excellent Katara

Tellin · 23/09/2018 08:14

Nailed it there Katara. Not that the OP cares I imagine. They just wanted to put a bunch of women discussing women's rights in their place for not including men.

Sorry, I meant non-trans non-men of course discussing how they're being erased as a distinct category while the govt pretends it upholds sex based discrimination. No one seems to realise you can't protect sex and gender discrimination at the same time in practice.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 23/09/2018 08:37

Well said Katara !

NotZenEnough · 23/09/2018 08:58

I hope OP reads what katarajean wrote

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/09/2018 09:07

It's very odd but sure I've seen the OPs name around on other threads but I had a sneaky peak and their name appears new.

Pandamodium · 23/09/2018 09:12

I lurk more then post but I do have a personal story. I'm not nearly as clever articulate as the majority of the posters on here so you will have to bear with me. I will try to include all the facts and not commit literal violence with my pronouns.

I tried to kill myself a good few years ago, it was a serious attempt my child had died I spent 8 days in a coma.

I agreed to inpatient treatment, the local women's psychiatric hospital was full so I was packed off "voluntarily" (it wasn't if I had attempted to sign out I would of been sectioned, pretty standard in MH) to a mixed hospital on a mixed ward. I didn't have a problem with this, male and female patients were on different corridors usually with a nurse patrolling.

A new patient arrived, who was put on the female section fuck knows why they as they had a penis, I know because they had a liking for flashing it. I was uncomfortable but kept my gob shut I was nice, treat them like any other person. Till I woke up one night and he was masturbating about 5 centimetres away from my sleeping face.

I screamed blue murder woke the male and female section up, wanking Sally got rugby tackled to the floor by another patient as night staff had fucked off.

I got discharged the next, off half my meds and addicted to zopiclone presumably for putting a complaint in and refusing to sleep in my room. Sally could still be in that room as they where never moved and I never went back.

Should that be allowed to happen?

Molokonono · 23/09/2018 09:16

@Tiggy82

It is great and very timely that you think 'trans women are women'.

If you could pop over to the thread below and explain your thought process, it will help all the women who need that help, to explain how you came to that decision.

TIA.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3372606-Please-can-someone-who-thinks-that-TWAW?msgid=81235196#81235196

LadyBrian · 23/09/2018 09:18

Panda Flowers

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