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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Handmaidens'

202 replies

Dakinis · 21/09/2018 11:53

I've seen this discussed before but what are thoughts on using the term 'handmaiden' to refer to non GC women?

Personally I'd like to see it join 'terf' on the banned list as I think it's equally as offensive but interested in the consensus.

OP posts:
FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 15:55

Yes, Bowl. One can be supportive of trans people (want to support their right not to be discriminated against in employment, housing, want them to be able to live their lives free from the threat of violence and harrassment) without sharing their belief that "transwomen are women." Just as I would not want to see a Catholic colleague sacked for their Catholicism, but don't want to be forced to recite the Nicene creed.

Clarice is onto something upthread, by suggesting we also consider examples beyond the trans debate.

Take rape apologism, and two journalists responding to a feminist writer saying "we need to reduce the burden of proof in rape cases from 'beyond reasonable doubt' to 'balance of probabilities.'"

One says "I totally agree that low conviction rates are a scandal, but the risk to the justice system as a whole, and the risk of (a) false convictions and (b) criminal proceedings being used to 'fit people up' is too great". Not a handmaiden.

Second says "I fear for my sons, growing up in an environment where a hand on an arse will result in some hussy fitting them up for rape..." - in the knowledge that this woman is plenty bright enough to know that is a straw man, and to know the statistics that an individual man is actually more at risk of being raped by another man than he is of being falsely accused by a woman (she wrote only the week before about how male victims of sexual violence weren't taken seriously) - now, that's handmaidenry in action.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/09/2018 15:55

What a pointless thread. OP isn't being genuine here so there's no point talking to them is there?

Thousands of people read this board without posting. Traffic landing via this board has increased twelvefold since 2016. Every post like this - wel it doesn’t change the OPs mind but it does shine a little more sunlight on the issue for people lurking. Wink

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/09/2018 15:55

Oh Dakinis !!!

You were called a handmaiden because your wilful blindness and self deception led you to lie. You STILL haven't had the courage, or courtesy, to acknowledge that you either knowingly lied or were simply not well informed - though you certainly are now as many have supplied you with the correct information.

You stated, unequivocally, that violent rapists were not placed in the female estate.

Until you address that, clearly and unambiguously, you will be described in many negative ways, handmaiden, liar etc.

Why not be brave? Put right your error...

Materialist · 21/09/2018 15:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 21/09/2018 15:56

If I use the term handmaiden, I am definitely doing it in a pejorative way. So what?

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/09/2018 16:09

But generally on here handmaiden is used as an insult to feminists who accept TWAW.

When I have seen it on MN is almost exclusively on Relationships when a bunch of women pile on to tell a woman who is being abused not to LTB. And then it is used exclusively as a collective term. For example "I see the handmaidens are here in force tonight".

And not caring about women being abused and encouraging them to submit to it is kind of handmaidenly.

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 16:15

Yes MrsTerry - I've also seen it on threads in relationships where someone posts "My husband knew lap dancing was a deal breaker for me, but he went to a lap-dancing club on a stag do and even had a private dance..." and a load of posters come on saying "I'm cool with it...", "You're just jealous and controlling...", "Imagine if he tried to police what you did in your spare time..."

I happily call such women handmaidens because they are handmaidens.

LassWiADelicateAir · 21/09/2018 16:17

Calling someone a "traitor" is largely in the eyes of the person making the accusation. Even where a traitor is convicted there will always be defenders eg wikileaks convictions.

I was called a traitor for donating to the No campaign and voting no to Scottish independence. I think the person who said that is an offensive idiot who is too stupid to bother with- he presumably genuinely believes I was working against the interests of the people of Scotland.

deepwatersolo · 21/09/2018 16:19

I believe the problem is that OP believes self-ID trumps everything.

If OP does not self-identify as a handmaiden, she must not be called handmaiden, even if she argues for males in women's prisons.

If OP self-identifies as a feminist, one must not challenge, whether she is a feminist, no matter what positions she holds.

And this is also the reason, why OP believes that TWAW, even if she couldn't define 'woman' for the life of her.

But self-ID does not trump everything in the real world. In the real world words have meanings and people are judged by their actions.

Datun · 21/09/2018 16:21

Datun would you consider non GC feminist women your own or would you consider them the enemy?

Lots of women think critically like me, who aren't feminist. And vice versa.

Lass is a prime example on these threads. She thinks moaning about signs on toilet doors is daft.

She is ferociously opposed to porn amd prostitution. But is not a feminist.

I would never call her a handmaiden. I understand why she thinks as she does.

I also know that Lass wouldn't throw other women under the bus. Doesn't mean she won't criticise them.

I have friends who have a very high opinion of women. But don't call themselves feminist. They're not gender critical, because most the time they don't think about it.

I personally think that if you devote any time to feminist history and the trans ideology, it results in being gender critical.
I struggle to see how it couldn't.

hackmum · 21/09/2018 16:56

I think the problem is that the OP thinks that everyone who dislikes a particular term wants that term to be banned. OP cannot get their head around the idea that some people dislike certain terms but have no desire to ban them. This is the TRA mindset - they want to silence people who disagree with them, and therefore literally cannot comprehend the idea that those same people have no desire to silence them back.

Here's the thing, OP. Some of us believe in free speech. Some of us believe that the best way to create a better society is to debate out loud, to have a free exchange of views, to put ideas to the test by discussing them, challenging them and working out whether they're good or bad. Some of us don't think that the way to create a better society is by screaming and shouting at people who disagree with us, or threatening them with physical and sexual violence, or by taking them to court.

I realise this may all be new and difficult for you to understand, so here's a suggestion. Why don't you go away and think about it for a while, perhaps do some reading, and then come back when you've understood?

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/09/2018 17:02

Some of us are also able to strongly disagree with an ideology without holding any animosity to the individuals who believe it.

The black and white, authoritarian goodies and baddies thing is a classic trait of cluster B disorders.

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 17:07

I tend to have a live-and-let-live attitude towards ideology, a fairly liberal, forgiving attitude towards a lot of property crime, and a pretty black-and-white attitude towards people who commit violent crimes. I'm now wondering where that places me... ConfusedSmile

Datun · 21/09/2018 17:14

Off the list of people I might ask to housesit for me?

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 17:26
Grin

I don't mean that I'd actually burgle houses myself!

Just that I find it easier to believe that someone who's had a bad start in life and got into theft might later on become a reformed person than I would a sex offender. Sex offenders seem to me to have an underlying failure in empathy which is never going to go away, so they will always be likely to re-offend (and I think this is born out in reoffending stats).

Put it this way, if I was an employer faced by two 30 year olds, one of whom had a conviction for petty theft from when he was 16 and had kept a clean record since, while the other had a record for sex offences, I might take a chance on employing the ex-thief (though probably not on a night shift where he was the only person in a warehouse full of electrical goods) but no way would I employ the sex offender.

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 17:27

Crosses house sitting for Datun off the list of possible career changes

LangCleg · 21/09/2018 17:59

I think the problem is that the OP thinks that everyone who dislikes a particular term wants that term to be banned. OP cannot get their head around the idea that some people dislike certain terms but have no desire to ban them. This is the TRA mindset - they want to silence people who disagree with them, and therefore literally cannot comprehend the idea that those same people have no desire to silence them back.

Yep. It's computer says no.

Ereshkigal · 21/09/2018 18:06

I'm amused by the house sitting Grin

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/09/2018 18:07

What about 'trans' familiar'?

VickyEadie · 21/09/2018 18:09

What about 'trans' familiar'?

Like Riff Raff in The Rocky Horror Show?

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/09/2018 18:18

Yes! Exactly.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/09/2018 18:19

Got in humming the song now

I'm just a sweet transvestite
From transsexual
Transyl-va-ni-aaaaaaa

I wonder if they can still out that show on?

FermatsTheorem · 21/09/2018 18:21

"Come up to the leb and see what's on the sleb..."

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/09/2018 18:22

Heh Heh Heh... Oh Brad, oh Janet, oh Brad. Oh..... YOU! Mwahahahhhhahaaaaaaa! Dammit Janet!

VickyEadie · 21/09/2018 18:55

I once had a cat called Riff Raff - after the character in RH.

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