Confused

[PeakedinthePeaks]

Hi, I'm new to all the current debates around feminism and feminism itself and have lurked a lot and posted a little.
I'm confused over a conversation I had with a colleague last week discussing self ID and the concerns women are raising. Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women? I didn't think so but like I said, I'm new to the subject and realise the answers are probably in other posts somewhere but couldn't find a title to match my question.
I am very uncomfortable with all inclusive toilets and have been following GRA discussions.
Can you be a feminist and support the GRA?

OP, I can't remember if someone has already posted it, but this thread has lots of links, that you might find informative.

Things have moved on a bit, and we now have certain words that are banned. (Terf, cis).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

UpstartCrow

To be fair, I called that poster my little rhymer, on the back of her rhymes.

I had called them couple of other things I deleted before I posted, though. In a way, I was diffusing my own annoyance!

@Truthmytruth I'm not sure where you've got that I have a trans child from?? I don't.

They’re supposed to make you think.
I find though that the nature of posts on these threads actually make me switch off from the message that they are trying to convey.

I asked questions on here last night and actually because some posters were patient and understanding of where I am I actually gained a lot more knowledge in those few posts than I have in weeks of trying to read the other threads.

I do actually find it quite ironic that at a time when women should be coming together groups of women are fighting each other.

I do find some language quite belittling and demeaning. This might well be my problem. I might be over sensitive but actually if your aim is to get more women behind your argument can you actually achieve that by fighting with them and making them see you as the enemy?

Many of you have, no doubt, lived this for longer and be more immersed in it but a lot of us are just starting to gain knowledge and question the proposed changes. If we, as women, can't ask other women these questions then who do we ask? Because the answer to that might be that we get our answers from the very people that you are fighting against.

peakedinpants Oops sorry. Confusing you with someone else. Reading too many threads and got too excited.

TruthMyTruth I think the OP has found her people. I think you have too. And that's a good thing.

What I have seen on here is people who want the best for everyone. They want to protect women and children, they want trans people to be safe while not simultaneously making anyone else unsafe, they want affirmation to be questioned as it can be harmful and medical treatment to be delayed and if possible completely avoided (the reality is horrific).

I support all those desires. I suspect you do too.

BrownPaperTeddy

You're quite right that many posters have been immersed in this. For years. Patience is often in short supply.

Have you taken a look at this thread? Not just the actual thread, but the many links too. Hopefully it will answer some questions.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Fantastic thread - hope it gets put on the signpost list (and the lists get pinned to the top of FWR).

Vicky, Knicknack

Vicky, as a lesbian I want the L the fuck out of LGBT too.

I just don't go to Pride or lesbian spaces any more, not wanting to have to deal with this ridiculous tripe and be faced with threats of being raped, beaten up or murdered for my sexual preference by people loudly and intolerantly bellowing about having love and compassion (except for those who won't conform to your personal politics.)

So I've been rendered invisible. No way to tell how many invisible, very pissed off lesbians are out there, because what's left are the happy on message brainwashed ones making it look like everything's lovely.

ME TOO!

Women-only and lesbian-only meeting has become near impossible without the male-born. But that is one of the main purposes of all this wokeness, isn't it? We want our female-only spaces back. It is important to lesbians, females, living under the hetero-patriarchy.

The thing that worries me most is that if someone who has a GRC commits a rape then they will nog be able to be charged with that crime because only men can commit rape (S1 SOA)

It sounds insane but I think that if is going to be the next big case on this topic and I just hope that the precedent is set in favour of women.

Catlady that sounds nuts, but you are right, how will the law handle that?

A question that needs to be answered, I agree.

In English law rape is committed by a penis, not by a man.

Hence the sudden appearance and rise in officially documented 'female rapists'. With Female penises.

In English law rape is committed by a penis, not by a man
It is committed by a penis but as the Act expressly uses the pronoun HE, only MEN have been charged with this offence up to now.

If you have any definite proof that I am wrong then I would be really happy as I really want to be wrong on this issue.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

www.keepcalmtalklaw.co.uk/gendered-legislation-critiquing-the-sexual-offences-act-2003/

Betty I have seen Twitter threads of a TRA gently explaining to a rape victim that she had not been raped, since trans people cannot commit rape, and that at worst she'd experienced forced sex. Apparently trans people can't be guilty either. I suppose this is why AFTH are demanding the immediate release of all trans prisoners.

Utter batshit. I'm not even going to try unpacking it or understanding it, since that validates it. The answer is: you're insane. No.

There is absolutely no logic to that Tweet? at all.

I have seen the stats from the ONS on female rapists, which are published and searchable. I've submitted FOIs to police forces which confirm that perpetrators have been recorded by self id gender since 2009.

Sorry for no links as I'm right in the middle of something else, but I promise you can verify everything I say independently.

Jesus fucking Christ is this what the world has come to: telling women that they haven't been raped because the penis involved belonged to a trans woman. I am so angry.

Persian catlady

"In English law rape is committed by a penis, not by a man
It is committed by a penis but as the Act expressly uses the pronoun HE, only MEN have been charged with this offence up to now.

If you have any definite proof that I am wrong then I would be really happy as I really want to be wrong on this issue."

I was reading sex offences act thing the other day for a thread about indecent exposure

The crimes all seem to use "he" >> I think it's an old fashioned "he means she or he" type thing which sounds weird now as most things have moved to saying s/he or they or whatever, as "male default" has gone.

PP is correct that it does not need to be a man > it does need a penis.

hence the explosion in women committing rape in UK stats last year.

Women (cunty) can be prosecuted for rape if it's joint enterprise e.g. the restrain the victim while a man rapes them. This is VERY rare and does not account for the sudden stats of women beign convicted for rape in teh UK. But women can't rape and even if we use an object it's a different category. Rape requires a penis. Women can have penises ergo women can now rape.

All this is really fucking up the sex crime stats and giving mra's "women do it too" ammo, starting to disguise the fact that sex crimes are overwhelmingly committed by penis people .

you end up with ludicrous statements in the press about "she showed the woman her penis" and no-one knows whats what any more.

you can read here sex offences act 2003

click any of them and they all use "he" >> eg sexual assault this crime can be committed by men or women, it's just a v old fashioned way of writing it where man is default and includes women.

Rape in UK requires a penis. This is not the case in other countries and there are good arguments for changing in.

I think it's an older crime and is specific due to:

• Risk of pregnancy is a big deal
• Women as property so rape was seen as a crime against another mans property
• Ignoring that men can and do rape other men

(The equivalent crime that women can commit carried the same punishments.)

However recently it is actually quite handy to have this law because:
You can look at the numbers and know that the perpetratos are male (penis people) without having to look for stats with sex splits that may or may not havebeen recorded
And of course the increase in "women" convicted of rape in the last year > from it being zero every year or possibly 1 very rare joint enterprise conviction up to > it was 10 or something last year > is a really strong demonstration of how crime stats are being fucked up. More so than if you had to go digging around for percentages from different sources and stuff.

Does anybody have any links or information about a woman being charged with actual rape?

Not sexual assault or being an accessory.

daily mail

was reported elsewhere as well, there were threads at the time.

the papers really pushed this shocking rise - and it is a shocking rise BUT

the unquestioning repeat of the stat that 6 women were convicted of rape >> anyone reading would understandably think that women in the UK had started committing rape.Many don't know that it requires a penis etc. Or that penis people are recorded in female stats.
It casts a ? over the rest of the figures.And we need to know >> is there a genuine increase ? if so that needs researching and addressing. Or, is it penis people, in which case it's not a change.

Also, the numbers went from 74 in 2014 to 142 in 2016 which is indeed a massive increase.

Then a lot of them had as an aside at the end the male numbers - which are MASSIVE but not headline news.

The total isn't given on the mail article but it is an order or 1000's more.... but of course this isn't news. Just a few of the vast numbers of men being convicted of this stuff going on the women's stats, shifts the women's stats massively, because so few women are convicted of thes crimes.

Karen White is the most famous (infamous?) example of a transwoman charged with rape

There are examples in the US of actual women being charged with rape

try google?

it has happened but is rare. they can be charged with rape if they have helped a man rape. they can't rape themselves as rape requires a penis.

from google

pretty upsetting story >> just lettign people knwo in case dont' want to read it