Confused

[PeakedinthePeaks]

Hi, I'm new to all the current debates around feminism and feminism itself and have lurked a lot and posted a little.
I'm confused over a conversation I had with a colleague last week discussing self ID and the concerns women are raising. Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women? I didn't think so but like I said, I'm new to the subject and realise the answers are probably in other posts somewhere but couldn't find a title to match my question.
I am very uncomfortable with all inclusive toilets and have been following GRA discussions.
Can you be a feminist and support the GRA?

Take the admin and show it to
The rising number of women who
Have been assaulted whilst in jail
By a woman who was an intact male!

Juells how can something that hasn't even happened yet possibly be affecting you?

Your preempting of a future situation does not equate to the GRA reform affecting you.

As I keep pointing out, the current law works on the basis of self ID. All this fear about males identifying as female and using female spaces. They've been doing it for 14 years. Legally. For 14 years.

Please Dakinis, please tell me
Who benefits from self ID?
If you support the change in law
You surely know who it is for
And how it will affect their days
And in exactly how many ways
I'm asking you to answer me
Who benefits from self ID?

And as we keep on pointing out... MANY people and agencies are acting as though the amendment has already been passed.

The current law does not work on Self ID as it is proposed, or why would they need to change the law?

And 'all this fear' is so bloody disingenuous! Again... have you even once stopped and looked at some of the current, real life damage done in the name of Self ID?

It is not us that are preempting anything...

Dakinis

Juells how can something that hasn't even happened yet possibly be affecting you?

As I keep pointing out, the current law works on the basis of self ID.

Trying to square both those claims, and failing.

As I keep pointing out, the current law works on the basis of self ID. All this fear about males identifying as female and using female spaces. They've been doing it for 14 years. Legally. For 14 years.

And as people keep pointing out to you, This Is Not True.

I am reminded of the immortal words of Tim Minchin in all this:

'If the facts don't fit my narrative
I'll just believe alternatives
Cos otherwise my brain will blow up'.

The lesbians I know all agree
We want to keep the L with the T

I fucking don't and neither do the all the lesbians I know.

Self ID is purely admin
It makes no difference to us women

Apart from the fact that it lets in the fetishists, you mean? And the opportunistic men who will use it when they realise women cannot challenge any man, no matter what he looks like, when self-id is law.

I for one do not want people of the like of Bradley, amongst whose hobbies is wanking in public.

Dakinis

Two things to GRC directly affects, as I keep saying, are prisons and all women shortlists. The prison authorities could change that in a heartbeat, if they wanted to. They don't.

There are 14,000 men in prison for sex offences, and 120 women.

Every single one of those men would get automatic transfer to a female prison if they had a GRC. Automatic.

Self ID would make it an administrative exercise, your words.

I'm sure you don't think that's a good idea. In which case, your solution would have to keep male sex offenders out of women's prison.

Which is my position. Do you have a different position to that?

Dakinis - what's wrong with making the mens mixed sex?

Not all females feel the same as you

Please don't speak for you too? Oh the irony.... when your whole point is because some women are stupid and selfish enough to be stuck on 'well I'm ok with it so meh', that all women should be ok with it.

No. How I feel personally is irrelevant. In matters of consent, No trumps Yes. Always. Unconditionally. End of. I believe that as a woman, to work against those women saying, clearly, no I am not ok with this, this will exclude me, this will damage me, this is not right or fair or safe and will remove me from public spaces, is a bloody terrible thing to do.

I have a responsibility to care about others as well as myself. To consider and weigh up other people's interests, safety and future as well as my own. I do not feel any responsibility to bring a group of males into women's spaces, with all the costs that involves to those women, because of the perceived benefits to those males, some of whom have highly questionable motives for wanting to be there. I do not see the women's interests as lesser and self ID is not by any means the only way to meet the needs of transwomen.

Preferred way, but not the only way. And absolutely not a way that is in any way in the interests of women.

I don't understand why Dakinis is so invested in this anyway. If she doesn't mind - fine. Since the government/councils/male tide is running in the direction she favours, why bother trying to change the minds of the few women who are objecting?

Vicky, as a lesbian I want the L the fuck out of LGBT too.

I just don't go to Pride or lesbian spaces any more, not wanting to have to deal with this ridiculous tripe and be faced with threats of being raped, beaten up or murdered for my sexual preference by people loudly and intolerantly bellowing about having love and compassion (except for those who won't conform to your personal politics.)

So I've been rendered invisible. No way to tell how many invisible, very pissed off lesbians are out there, because what's left are the happy on message brainwashed ones making it look like everything's lovely.

This is what it will look like when women who have been raped, assaulted, abused, have a religious faith or culture that doesn't gel with the preferences of someone male born, aren't comfortable or willing to be in states of undress around male bodied people, or the ones who plain believe going along with this ends equality for women, have all silently left women's spaces.

For anyone who cares about women, has their interests at heart, (and you would actually expect that from people who identify as women) this is a potential problem facing women that is a return to pre suffrage.

Dakinis isn't attempting to change anyone's mind, they're just repeating their mantras.

Either because it gets a good reaction, or because it somehow meets their needs. However anyone reading this thread can see GC women offering evidence, discussion, reasoning, explaining issues, trying to encourage some basic empathy and theory of mind....

and self ID supporters just blanking it all and repeating the delusion.

Every single one of those men would get automatic transfer to a female prison if they had a GRC. Automatic.

This just isn't true. Will Ian Huntley get an automatic transfer? Of course not. There will always be assessments on prisoners to see if they are playing the system. I know the prison system isn't perfect but sex offenders are never housed with women. That won't change with a GRA reform.

I know the prison system isn't perfect but sex offenders are never housed with women.

Ah now you're just being goady, after all the threads about the recent case.

I know the prison system isn't perfect but sex offenders are never housed with women.

What game are you playing with this statement, Dakinis? You know perfectly well that's not true.

Juells I wouldn't call posting a few poems on a thread 'so invested'. The OP is new to the topic and I've written what the leftie feminist stance is. Us lefties rarely stick around for long, it's not exactly welcoming here for the non radicals. Accusations of 'we see you' etc etc

Anyway hope it gave the OP chance to see there are other branches of feminism which are welcoming and accepting of trans people .

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC

You've got to be kidding us Dakinis?

How can you not be aware of the numerous examples of exactly this thing happening, starting in 2009 and continuing for the last 9 years.

Firstly, many of us here are lefties so you need not imagine you can educate us on 'the leftie feminist stance'. You speak only for yourself.

Secondly you've just embarrassed yourself by exposing your lack of research or knowledge on exactly what actually DOES happen when violent men identity as women.

Stick around and maybe learn something.

Dakinis I considered myself on the left but I do not agree with anything you are saying. You seem as deluded as the men who think they are women. Your views are very naïve.

I know the prison system isn't perfect but sex offenders are never housed with women.

Oh but they are, a paedophilic offender was housed in a women’s prison with a mother and baby unit.

Wow thank you Datun this was another moment of clarity for me:

"And not Debbie Hayton who claims that the only authentic people are those with surgery. Or India Willoughby's claim that the only authentic one are those who aren't fetishists. Or the fetishists' claim that it doesn't matter, they're all authentic.

Being supportive of a whole bunch of men sitting around trying to decide which one of them has the most right to access women and girls, and fuck what you think, is so far removed from feminism, it's not funny."

'Us women' (while talking down to women) and 'Us Lefties' (while talking down to people here many of whom if not predominantly, are left voters...)

You keep loudly identifying while being tone deaf to the very people you're trying to identify with. Really need to stop reading this thread and go back to trying to nail that jelly to the table.

Seriously Dakinis draw a line under this thread and take up the offer Barracker made.

Stick around and ask some questions, fill those gaps in your knowledge. You may not change your mind but you will have made a properly informed decision!

Ah jeez you're welcome OP. Why ask about other viewpoints if you already know you're a rad fem.