Confused

[PeakedinthePeaks]

Hi, I'm new to all the current debates around feminism and feminism itself and have lurked a lot and posted a little.
I'm confused over a conversation I had with a colleague last week discussing self ID and the concerns women are raising. Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women? I didn't think so but like I said, I'm new to the subject and realise the answers are probably in other posts somewhere but couldn't find a title to match my question.
I am very uncomfortable with all inclusive toilets and have been following GRA discussions.
Can you be a feminist and support the GRA?

Barracker my answer to that is a firm no.

the focus being on treating males and females equally. Really? You can know about a convicted rapist housed in a women's prison, sexually assaulting other inmates and STILL say that? You think that case was sensibly assessed? You think that because it is currently rare it is fine, cos hey! It was only a few women, it was only one man?

Nope!

Not because all transwomen are dangerous but because today's transwoman is not the same as the transwomen many of us have known, or been, for many decades.

Nope because the current gender focus is so damaging. And I STILL wonder hat the hell went wrong after the 80s? Adam Ant and Boy George - both sex symbols for both sexes, girls will be boys will be girls was just a matter of how you chose to dress and do your make on any given day. We were all gender benders, to some extent.

Now you have to choose which little gender box you want to live in... and then stay in it! Weird and regressive!

Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women?

It shows a complete disregard for other women who are unable to share mixed sex spaces, such as women from religious or conservative backgrounds, or who are in violent or controlling relationships. Or those who are managing PTSD, or need privacy to manage their miscarriage.

When you put it that way, does it sound like a feminist way of thinking?

" the focus being on treating males and females equally. "

But what does this mean?
Treating all people equally... somehow and without the ability to measure that this is what is happening

Take crime stats
Sex offences committed by women are through the roof all of a sudden, it was reported in all the papers, what is happening with women that this has happened?
Included in the stats were a number of rapes
It is vanishingly rare for someone without a penis to be convicted of rape
So
Have sex crimes committed by women gone through the roof?
Or have sex crimes committed by women been static and the numbers are inflated by penis-people who have declared a female gender ID (no GRC required they go on self dec).

if we don't know, how can we know if there is a genuine change that needs addressing?

These stats have already been lauded by certain groups who like to claim that women are just as bad as men when it comes to sexual violence and the focus on male perpetrators is a poor approach. ie MRAs. But that's a side issue.

And realise that self ID does not mean opening the flood gates to sinister males, as is so often suggested on here.

Dear lord. You can't be serious.

Martin Ponting, Michelle Lewin, Karen White, all rapists. Two of them are paedophiles, incarcerated in a mother and baby unit.

One's just been removed because they attacked four women (for which they've been convicted).

In your world they should all remain. The paedophiles and the rapists.
Because they are women.

If you think there is a case for removing them, it's because you don't believe transwomen are women.

You bigot.

assess each rare occurrence on a case by case basis. And realise that self ID does not mean opening the flood gates to sinister males

From the comfortable perspective of my own life, I would have agreed with you not long ago.
But it only takes ONE boy (meaning male child) in the girl's changing rooms at school to make it mixed-sex for the whole 1000-pupil school, one male child competing in the girls' hockey to make it less safe for all the girls, one transwoman councillor to rewrite the rule book (while everyone refrains from objecting in case she's offended) so that thousands of people who don't believe the ideology have less say, one moderator on a newspaper comments team to delete a range of dissenting voices.

It's a drip rather than a flood.

treating people equally is not how we achieve fairness, anyway. That would mean giving everyone or no one a guide dog or crutches.

Where women are currently disadvantaged by their sex, they need adjustments for that that males don't need.

Just to be fair

They aren't in the mother and baby unit
They are / were in women's prisons that have mother and baby units.

I am not sure how much mixing there is between the general population and the mothers/babies.
Babies can stay with their mums til age 2 I think and so I'd expect there is some mixing, otherwise it would be very isolating and pscholgically not good for the mothers or the children.

So it is an important point - that women's prisons can and do house children while men's don't >> but AFAIK (!) these paedophiles were not actually locked in the mother and baby unit.

Happy to be corrected / advised on how these are organised in real life.

Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women?

It is possible to not care about single sex provision. To think that there is no problem with males and females sharing hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms etc.

There is no problem with disagreeing with positive discrimination and providing women only shortlist's.

There is a problem with arguing for single sex provision and positive discrimination and then dismantling people's right to distinguish the 2 sexes from each other!

Feminism for me is for women, and not about being inclusive to men and pandering to their delusions and self-importance. Biology rules.

How come transwomen aren't moving in on men's rights groups and demanding to be central there? It would make more sense, as the perceived threat they're always talking about (the one we have to be human shields for) comes from men, not from women. Let them work on educating men to be more accepting of TW in men's spaces.

Lots of informative posts, thank you. It's something I feel very passionate about and thought we held the same beliefs but the majority of posts here match my thinking and tell me I have nothing in common with her. The reference to a prominent heterosexual feminist as a lesbian terf put my back up and it went downhill from there.

"How come transwomen aren't moving in on men's rights groups and demanding to be central there? It would make more sense, as the perceived threat they're always talking about (the one we have to be human shields for) comes from men, not from women. Let them work on educating men to be more accepting of TW in men's spaces."

100% agree.

"prominent heterosexual feminist as a lesbian terf "

Lesbian being used as an insult for women who do not comply with men / disagree with them
So progresssive.

That this is coming from the mouths of women now is horrifying.

Lesbian being used as an insult for women who do not comply with men / disagree with them

Their crime is that men aren't the most important things in their lives

In your world they should all remain. The paedophiles and the rapists.Because they are women.

Not Datun, that is what rad fems constantly accuse us other feminists of. But no.

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable. Most people would not begrudge a transsexual woman who transitioned 30 years ago to use a ladies toilet. Most people would not condone Ian Huntley being put in a female prison.

Being aware of safeguarding when it comes to female spaces doesn't make a liberal feminist a bigot or a radical feminist a transphobe - it just makes us normal.

I'm not surprised the OP is confused if she thinks the only alternative to radical feminism is welcoming rapists and paedophiles into female spaces. It's not that black and white.

I'm not surprised the OP is confused if she thinks the only alternative to radical feminism is welcoming rapists and paedophiles into female spaces.

If you read what libfems post on twitter, or on feminist websites, that's exactly what it means. TWAW and no quarter given.

Case by case is dangerously useless to women who are using a toilet when a man walks in.

no you cannot really be a feminist and centre biological males , even if they identify as black/muslim/white/asian/disabled women.

Dakinis please do explain how self ID is going to allow for case by case decisions at the door of every toilet and changing room? Can you sign post me to where this version of self ID is explained in terms of the current white paper/consultations and advising committees and groups?

Because that's the exact opposite of everything the government and everyone else seems to be working on and have in the public sphere that I've read.

So you are ignoring posters and repeating the same old same old...

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable. Yes, you said that, and a few of us have pointed out a few instances, happening right ow, where that 'reasonable' approach has led to women being harmed.

Most people would not begrudge a transsexual woman who transitioned 30 years ago to use a ladies toilet. Most people would not condone Ian Huntley being put in a female prison. You are comparing apples and oranges there...

Being aware of safeguarding when it comes to female spaces doesn't make a liberal feminist a bigot or a radical feminist a transphobe - it just makes us normal. No, it makes radfems louder and liberal fems more ridiculous the more often they repeat the 'accept and include' speech without actually considering the growing amount of evidence that they are out of date, out of touch and are supporting a new ideology that takes advantage of their 'niceness'.

And I say that as a LibFem with a number of trans friends for way back it the 80s, who only changed her mind about a year ago after a nasty exchange with a non binary personage made me do a bit more reading!

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable.

That's what's happening at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be working out very well for women. There have been a number of cases (the latest being Karen White) where rapists have been put in female prisons and sexually assaulted the women there.

Having a GRC makes it more likely that a male offender will be placed in a women's prison. Self ID means more male offenders with GRCs, since some will get the GRC purely for the purpose of being transferred to a women's prison.

Who do you think will benefit from self ID, Dakinis? Sex offenders certainly will, but who else?

Women will lose out. Transsexuals (those who already have a GRC, or would be currently eligible) will lose out.

Sorry, just catching up on all the replies. Will reply properly later on. I'm not ignoring anyone.

If you put penises before women, then no.

There is no equality when those who say they are women have penises. When special dispensations are made. When their motives are dark. Where a movement attracts rapists and paedophiles who are manipulating children.

I really don't understand any women that are "ok" with putting women and children in harm's way, as Karen White's case showed.

His former girlfriend said he had no interest in transitioning.

Experts have already stated that some men will abuse the rules to exploit the system, as this Spectator piece concludes:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/are-female-prisoners-at-risk-from-transgender-inmates/

'In summary, a representative body for psychologists and the leading expert in the field, speaking for other experts, submitted clear and quite extensive evidence to Parliament suggesting that some male sex-offending criminals have attempted to exploit existing gender-change rules for harmful and illegitimate purposes and that others are likely to attempt to do so in future. '

Um

If TWAW there is NO basis for keeping certain (wo)men out of women's prisons.

Either they are women or they aren't.

FWIW the prevailing pro trans approach to the prisons issue is

TWAW
No woman should be forced into a male prison no matter what crime they have committed, as that is a cruel and unusual punishment, prisons are separate male and female for a reason
Cunty women commit sexual and violent offences too

Then we have two schools of thought...

1. Violent women should be managed in the female estate, it's violence in prisons that is a problem, let's focus on stamping that out rather than discriminating against an already highly oppressed group of women and denying them their rights to be housed in prison with other women

1. People who commit sexual offences / DV / violence against women should never be put in the female estate. (The advocates for this do not explain exactly where they should go, and they also seem to have forgotten that while the numbers of women in prison for these crimes are very low, they do exist, and they seem to be saying these cunty women should be locked in with the transwomen who have commited VAWG in some ? other place entirely??????????)

Dakinis please do explain how self ID is going to allow for case by case decisions at the door of every toilet and changing room?

It's very simple.

Today, if a man wandered into a female changing room claiming to be a woman so he could perve on other women he would be kicked out and police called.

If self ID goes ahead and a man wanders into a female changing room claiming to be a woman he will still be kicked out and police called.

Today, if a pre or post op trans woman wishes to use a female changing room she is legally able to under the GRA 2004. Under the current law she is required to live as a woman for two years which means using female facilities before transitioning

If self ID goes ahead and and a pre or post op trans woman wishes to use a female changing room the updated GRA will not make a blind bit of difference.

Conclusion: nothing will change!!