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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender inmate Karen White admits sexually assaulting female prisoners in women's estate, also guilty of rape prior to being imprisoned.

250 replies

R0wantrees · 06/09/2018 16:29

BBC article: 'Transgender inmate admits Wakefield jail sex offences'
"A transgender prisoner has admitted sexually assaulting inmates at a women's jail.

Karen White, 51, who was born male but now identifies as a woman, has pleaded guilty to two counts of sexual touching at New Hall Prison, Wakefield.

The offences took place between September and November last year. She has since been moved to a male prison.

Details emerged when White appeared at Leeds Crown Court to admit to a rape committed before she was jailed.

She previously admitted two further rape charges, which also happened outside prison.

White will be sentenced for all offences on 11 October."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45436953

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
LangCleg · 09/09/2018 11:20

Thought I'd read that somewhere.

You probably did! It's just that reported stats usually only apply to England & Wales as both Scotland and NI are separate systems.

CesiraAndEnrico · 09/09/2018 11:25

Popchyk

So while never used for females, it is in theory unisex. So why didn't they send the violent, convicted TWs kicking up a stink about womanhood there ?

Tara HeadButt could have been sent there post press attention too.

I'm not advocating it as a long term solution. Personally I think segregation along the lines of sex is basic common sense. But if they have this unit, they had a work around from the get go. But chose to place women (xx) in danger anyway,

WTF ?

WhatFreshHellisCis · 09/09/2018 11:27

Next thing, Karen will identify as being innocent of all crimes and be released from prison?
Where does it all end?

Popchyk · 09/09/2018 12:21

Karen White will be talking to TELI in order to sue the prison authorities to get a move back to the women's prison.

TELI will keep it hush hush though. And KW will have another name change so that when "male transgender person moves to women's prison" is reported on again, nobody will be able to link it to KW.

R0wantrees · 09/09/2018 13:03

Karen White will be talking to TELI in order to sue the prison authorities to get a move back to the women's prison.

The issue is the role that TELI and those associated have had in the policies and legislation that enabled White / Thompson / Wood to gain access to what would be regarded as safe single sex spaces where he committed serious crimes against women and children.

What policies and legislation prevented the prison service from being able to take into account the known crimes in the risk assessment.

There are 6 principles of Safeguarding:

Empowerment
People being supported and encouraged to make their own decisions and informed consent.

Prevention
It is better to take action before harm occurs.

Proportionality
The least intrusive response appropriate to the risk presented.

Protection
Support and representation for those in greatest need.

Partnership
Local solutions through services working with their communities. Communities have a part to play in preventing, detecting and reporting neglect and abuse.

Accountability
Accountability and transparency in safeguarding practice.

OP posts:
deepwatersolo · 09/09/2018 13:10

And KW will have another name change so that when "male transgender person moves to women's prison" is reported on again, nobody will be able to link it to KW.

You think that this amply proven threat to women has any chance of going back to a woman's prison? Who would dare risk his head okaying that?

ALittleBitofVitriol · 09/09/2018 13:13

So, that women's officer who called the victims liars... have they commented on this newly reported information?

deepwatersolo · 09/09/2018 13:21

God did they get their qualifications off the back of the cornflakes box or something?

It is obviously a matter of class. Policymakers of all parties and administrators, including women, feel more allegiance to Bergdorf and Jenner than to women in prison, imo.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 09/09/2018 13:27

Vitriol the woman's officer merely points out that women assault women anyway, so fussing because a transwoman assaults a woman is transphobic: you're only complaining because they're trans.

Likewise the manifesto for Action for Trans Health 'demands' the release of all trans prisoners. ('Lian' Huntley among them).

Women of the biological sort do not matter to this agenda.

As someone else said on another thread, it's time that Jess Philips shits or gets off the pot. Either transwomen are women and that means we put paedophiles, sex offenders, rapists and any male who says the magic words in women's provision everywhere- and accept that the massive leap in rapes, sexual assault and damage to women and girls is the price of being lovely and inclusive as women are not deserving of equal rights to men - or women have rights too, some people with penises cannot be trusted around women and there need to be checks, balances, gate keeping and some situations in which transwomen must be counted as a separate group to women. With separate provisions and systems.

Make a bloody decision Jess and stop pissing about.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 09/09/2018 13:33

The obvious solution is a trans specific prison.

This is not wanted by the TRA agenda as it is 'othering'. However a balance of trans and women's interests must be maintained. And its impossible to remove from the equation that one of the reasons this is not an acceptable solution to many of the men seeking it, is that trans specific provision removes access to victims, does not provide validation and no sexual thrill. These things can only happen in the presence of biological women.

This is not about the right of trans prisoners to be trans, or the rights of trans prisoners to be safe - who wouldn't be in favour of that? It's about the right of men to have access to biological women. With those biological women not permitted a voice about it.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 09/09/2018 13:33

Thanks Knicknackpaddyflak how tediously predictable. That women's officer is a special kind of special...

MipMipMip · 09/09/2018 15:43

I'll tell you what, Karen was lucky to get out of the women's estate before those charges came out. They'll be lucky if they don't get a boiling sugar bath in the men's too.

BettyDuMonde · 09/09/2018 17:32

I’ve been reliably informed that White had been rejected by medical gatekeepers - hence no diagnosis.

This IS what self ID will look like.

CesiraAndEnrico · 09/09/2018 19:31

This IS what self ID will look like.

Or worse, if they get their way on this little legal fiddle/fiction.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6148595/Criminal-fights-two-convictions-removed-record-transgender.html

Angryresister · 09/09/2018 20:01

guardian now reporting on it. No comments allowed

R0wantrees · 09/09/2018 20:21

Guardian article focuses on Francis Crook's comments & includes comment by Pilgrim Tucker.:
'Sexual assaults in women's prison reignite debate over transgender inmates
Prison reformer criticises ‘decisions that have harmed women’ in Karen White case'
(extract)
"Frances Crook, the chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said vulnerable women were being put at risk by a small number of violent men whose primary interest was harming women.

“It is a very toxic debate, but I think prisons have probably been influenced by some of the extreme conversations and have been bullied into making some decisions that have harmed women and put staff in an extremely difficult position,” she said." (continues)

"Trans rights groups say prisons are already required to scrutinise each request and analyse risks, and argue that transgender prisoners are among the most vulnerable inmates and are let down by the current system.

The Ministry of Justice has apologised in White’s case and said previous offending history was not taken into account. Requests for transfer from prisoners whose legal gender does not accord with their self-identified gender are normally assessed by a transgender case board, “which should consider all previous offending history”, but this was not carried out in this case.

Crook said that during a recent prison visit a governor told her of five prisoners who were identifying as women and had asked for transfer. All had a history of sexual violence against women and had had their requests turned down. “I would say decision-making is patchy,” said Crook. “While permission is being refused in some instances, clearly mistakes are still being made in others.”

She added: “In my view, any man who has committed a serious sexual or violent offence against women, who then wants to transfer but has not gone through the whole process, still has a penis and still has male hormones, should not be put into a women’s prison. There may be a case for having separate provision; that is a debate to be had.”

Pilgrim Tucker, who has led legal action over proposed changes to the Labour party’s policy on the formal inclusion of self-identifying trans women on all-women shortlists, said women campaigning about self-identification had long warned of the risk it posed. “Almost half of trans women prisoners are sex offenders,” she said. “We urgently need to start prioritising the safeguarding of women and girls over the feelings of male-bodied people.” (continues)

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white

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Ereshkigal · 09/09/2018 20:49

Not massively impressed. Links to the bullshit BBC fact piece to discredit the FairPlay numbers.

And of course no comments. There were plenty on the recent WEP article but it felt like men and MTFs were arguing about what a women was. No thanks. Fuck off bros. Do better Guardian.

LangCleg · 10/09/2018 09:24

Good Twitter thread on the perils of managing high risk prisoners or patients:

twitter.com/allthatisol/status/1038892921901199361

Ends:

‘Trans’ is too wide and ill defined. Within the Prison estate it clearly is co-morbid with personality disorders and sexual offending. It is naive to assume that the key issue in managing that small group is whether to validate their claims that they are women.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 10/09/2018 13:27

Wow Francis - I hope you have a tin hat, but thank you for saying the 'unsayable'.

I think prisons have probably been influenced by some of the extreme conversations and have been bullied into making some decisions that have harmed women and put staff in an extremely difficult position,

R0wantrees · 10/09/2018 14:03

Dr Nicola Williams (Fairplay for Women), Melissa Pascoe (quoted in Andrew Gilligan's Sunday Times article and Tara Hudson (former transwoman prisoner) were interviewed on The Victoria Derbyshire Show this morning.
Parts are being used on BBC rolling news (though not Tara Hudson's apparent expletive and middle finger at the end)

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bjjqvd/victoria-derbyshire-10092018

Thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3361150-Dr-Nicola-Williams-on-BBC2-at-10-15-Victoria-Live

OP posts:
seafret · 11/09/2018 16:39

Good Twitter thread on the perils of managing high risk prisoners or patients:

twitter.com/allthatisol/status/1038892921901199361

Ends:

‘Trans’ is too wide and ill defined. Within the Prison estate it clearly is co-morbid with personality disorders and sexual offending. It is naive to assume that the key issue in managing that small group is whether to validate their claims that they are women.

That link to Twitter and the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Personality Disorder Unit, Ashworth Special Hospital report are gold lang. Thank you

UndercoverGC · 11/09/2018 17:46

I've just read the Prison Service document.
If a trans woman prisoner has a GRC, they have to be kept in the female estate, even if the index offence is rape of a woman.
They have to put rapists in women's prisons.
This is already the law, and already a thing that has happened.
Fuck that.

SausageOnAFork · 11/09/2018 19:15

Even if that person is in possession of a fully working penis? So all they need is a piece of paper saying they are really a woman and that’ll be ok?
Are the other prisoners issued with sturdy pyjamas?

MipMipMip · 11/09/2018 21:19

We can only hope so Sausage.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 22:11

Kevlar pyjamas?

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