Green Party thread 3

[FermatsTheorem]

Previous thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3347925-Green-Party-statement-continuation-thread?pg=40

Will post links to AC's public statement and Caroline Lucas's appalling white wash job in a moment, but for me, Andrew Gilligan nails it yet again:
twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1034776005326581767

I think I am with Red in the sense that I've taken a won't vote until one of you gives me something to vote for position. But I don't see that as precluding me from being politically active in other ways.

I believe it’s far better to encourage letter writing, preferably unique and not copied.

Not sure if it’s still the case, but petitions used to be regarded as a single protest, however many people signed up to it.

What cesira said about our political reality is very true. I find Italians change politics colour as often as their socks and have no real understanding of politics as we would at home. Socialism to Italians is a right-wing ideology, communism, especially to anyone under 40, is claiming to be all for extreme left wing politics while driving the best car, wearing the most expensive designer clothes and if you ask them for a donation for the homeless they refuse.

As someone from the far northern Irish left, it hurts me to say that for the current climate in Italy Salvini may be the best of a bad bunch. 5 palle are a pack of kids who have no idea what they are doing, PD is dead, fi is dead and buried, and the rest of them never counted for much anyways.

lang it may amuse you to know that the Italian communist party were the first party in the world to have a transgender mp who also happened to fiddle expenses to get himself a boobjob on the public purse 🤣

LOL!

I am as terrified of the hard left. Their violent Antifa tactics, totalitarian groupthink and attempts to silence people. I see the rampant anti-semitism and misogyny of the left. The likes of the most extremist left fringes are closer to getting power, have footholds in academia and the media.

And then I think of the hard right... Who are just as bad with their anti-semitism and misogyny. And I see how the overreaches of the authoritarian left only fuels the anger of the extremist right. I think about Tommy Robinson, and how he allegedly began his journey simply by wanting to raise concerns about what was going on in his working-class community but then became increasingly radicalized and anti-Muslim because nobody would let him have that conversation.

I don't belong on any "side." I'd like us all to stay in the middle, agree on basic liberal principles, strive for truth instead of protecting the "team" you play for, and freedom of speech must apply to everyone. Ideological purity is dangerous. But if I had to choose which people I am more scared of, right here, right now, it's the hard left. Because they've convinced everyone (including themselves) that they are the "good guys."

If either the extreme left or extreme right rise to actual political dominance, we are all fucked.

We're all fucked but in different ways.

Yes.

I think we are ahead of the curve in terms of a populaist backlash, but as counter initiative as it might seem, maybe better placed for a pull back if it starts to go beyond comfort zones. Our poltical swings are faster and harder than yours possibly. So in some ways we might have a better chance of a U-turn than you lot if/when your backlash happens.

Cos you are more slow and steady as she goes, and once in place, it might be harder to evict a populist flavoured gov.. Plus your system is different, so once in yours will have the sort of critical mass behind them that might be slower to roll back.

But FuckedLandia is no fun for any of us, regardless of which side of the alps you are on.

But FuckedLandia is no fun for any of us, regardless of which side of the alps you are on.

LOL

it may amuse you to know that the Italian communist party were the first party in the world to have a transgender mp who also happened to fiddle expenses to get himself a boobjob on the public purse

Is that why I haven't heard a peep about/from Luxuria for ages ?

I will not be voting again until a political party does something to earn my vote, and I have voted in every single election since I turned 18, and had assumed I always would.

That account of how Tommy Robinson stated his journey doesn't sound quite right to me and to repeat it gives it credence.

I would never work with UKIP. My mother was one of the Windrush generation and I have doubt that UKIP's members would have me on a plane back to the West Indies in a flash if they could.

If you work with or pretend to engage with the far right and to some extent the far left, you will alienate anyone in the BME population and quite a lot of white people too.

Italian politics is not English, Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh politics (each of which have their own unique character).

Whilst there are commonalities, cultural differences and history do have a massive impact.

Brits have a tendency when talking about politics in other countries to fail to that into consideration and apply British politics to their understanding, which is a fundamentally flawed thing to do.

For example anti immigration /racism has a very different nature in different EU countries because of the pattern of migration it has experienced. The French have issues with their Algerian history whereas the British have issues with their Indian Empire history.

I think there is a danger here of British / Italian differences getting in the way here for this reason.

It's also true that British politics because it has been traditionally much more stable and consistent has an impact beyond its borders. It removes world political stability in a way that Italian politics does not.

As for what to do, I think that merely talking freely about your political beliefs is underestimated. Other people will talk if you talk. And that has a ripple effect. That's why MN is powerful.

More direct action like campaigning & letter writing is also good.

Show support to people you agree with and share values with. People like Amy Brooks and Victoria Atkins. Counter the abuse they might be getting to make it worth their while to put head above parapet

Procrastinator1
I do not agree with Robinson, in any way, shape or form. But it's the narrative Robinson himself seems to be telling. Not a single word of it may be true, but I think it's important to understand what extremists say about themselves, even if we do not believe it. Because that's how people like him, with extremely bigoted views, and the hatred that comes with them gain greater followings and the whole thing gets much more dangerous. And then scandals like Rotherham unfortunately feed into the false story. In my opinion, in order to fight extremist narratives you have to be able to counter specific points within them with the truth, not pretend these stories don't exist and let them fester in the shadows.

I think about Tommy Robinson, and how he allegedly began his journey simply by wanting to raise concerns about what was going on in his working-class community but then became increasingly radicalized and anti-Muslim because nobody would let him have that conversation

A case of history being rewritten to make Stephen Yaxley Lennon more palatable to the left. He was a member of the BNP. He said he left because he didn't realise non white people couldn't join the BNP. Even though the clue was in the name, and the clues were in any meeting he went to.

If either the extreme left or extreme right rise to actual political dominance,

I found the West Wing was so good at illustrating this. No party is interested in winning the votes of people who already support them - every party is after Swing Voters because they determine the outcome.

You attract swing voters by becoming more extreme and polarised in your rhetoric. Over a breathtakingly short amount of time, nobody is promoting moderate policies or interested in the votes of moderates because they perceive their election depends on winning the swing votes who, because of the shifting-window, become more polarised and extreme because of the political landscape.

Then you find yourself with a government and set of policies that leave you asking, "How did we get here?"

There's a good chance that Arendt might identify this in her Origins of Totalitarianism.

More direct action like campaigning & letter writing is also good.

That's why I like the idea of non digital #NoneOfTheAbove. I think the sheer space a full postbag takes up has more impact than emails/SM comment you can scroll past.

5 palle

Bloody love that. DH says maybe the upside of what we have now is a sweeping away of the stronghold the old political class had, and something new, that will go on to totally eclipse LN, will sprout up. Offering the first real choice, that people will be able to genuinely embrace, for a long time to happen. But I have one eye on the Radical Chic and tend to want to keep the suitcases out of the attic. Cos I can't see them going anywhere.

Show support to people you agree with and share values with. People like Amy Brooks and Victoria Atkins. Counter the abuse they might be getting to make it worth their while to put head above parapet

Any other names anybody can add ? Might be worth setting up a google alert on a list of names in order to know where solidarity is needed in a timely fashion. There could be a non-talky thread that pops up on people's watched threads list as soon as it gets bumped with a new "support needed here" post+link.

Sorry to back track to much earlier in the thread, but I want to pick this up and run with it.

RedToothBrush: The trouble with lying like that, is pollsters usually won't be able to tell what is driving you to support a party. A tactic like this can easily backfire as being interpreted as support for extremist views rather than a much more nuanced and moderate protest against the policies for the centre left / centre right. That in turn emboldens the far right and leds to more voices saying more extremist stuff. We eventually end up in a situation where centrists aren't given air time and debate no longer is actually debate but simply polarised positions.

I personally think we've seen this in action with Theresa May's approach to Brexit. She assumed that the Brexit vote was driven by the lowest common denominator racism (part of it undoubtedly was, but by no means all), made "keeping the foreigners out" the central plank of her negotiating strategy, thus ruling out a Norway type deal and leaving us well and truly up shit creek with a choice between no-deal crash out hard and remain a member in all but name, with no voting rights or influence. Trying to pander to the lowest common denominator took all decent compromise positions off the table, and the country will be royally shafted as a result. (Amber Rudd as home secretary was even more guilty of this - she went from passionate remain campaigner to extremely xenophobic home secretary without passing go! I will never forgive her for the "let's get employers to snoop on their European employees" speech at the Tory Party Conference.)

(That was in support of Red's point, btw - I think Red says much the same thing, albeit less wordily than me).

I’m a bit late to the party, but yeah. Greens. Just, wtf.

It didn’t post my pic

Yes it did!

Oh it did. damn you technology!!

Worth having it twice, though!

One other thing we (and the good ones out there) could try to do is to challenge the term 'transphobic' whenever it doesn't apply, which is most of the time at the moment. As many pp have said, a lot of us have been instinctively and committedly allies of people who are in distress about their sex and have resorted to changing it, MtF or FtM.

As several very eloquent people on the CL Guardian article have pointed out, it's the TRA side focusing on identity, not people worried about safeguarding. We're worried about behaviour, and more importantly, about risks to women and girls.

So I am - and I think that most people are:
Flasher-phobic (Jess Bradley)
Threats-of-sexual-violence-phobic (Anthony D Cooper)
Assaulting-a-little-girl-in-a-shopping-centre-toilet-phobic (the 'I've been silly' guy. That little girl is frightened to go into public toilets now. Should we really change the law so that there is more likelihood she will meet more 'crazy men'? Horrific.)

If a non-trans-identifying man did any of these, and was criticised/prosecuted for it, that would not be man-phobic. Because - aha! - NAMALT! Just the bad ones! And still everyone thinks that because SomeMALT, it's reasonable and sometimes essential to have some segregated spaces. And non-trans-identifying men campaigning to get into women's refuges, girl guides' tents, etc would fail instantly, on risk and behaviour grounds (SomeMALT), and on letting girls and women feel safe grounds. Both apply to both groups of men.

I met my MP recently. Socially. She is gender critical is turns out, but awaiting her choice moment to put her head above the parapet. Not afraid (I don’t think) but being tactical.

Anyway. She asked me - pretty much begged me - to write to her stating my views re:self ID. So she has it from a constituent. Can never have too much backing from your constituency! She also was very clear that I should be trying to get as many people as possible to write to THEIR OWN MP stating how they view self-ID.

She made some interesting points.

1. that a great many MPs are anti-self ID, and are simply waiting for the right time to debate it properly. At the moment apparently there are lots of smoke and mirrors political tactics stuff going on like stories in the Guardian, but not so much stuff-written-down-on-bits-of-paper-that-has-half-a-chance-of-being-seriously-debated.

2. that even if your MP is an old Tory who you avidly dislike and think of yourself as never voting for - write to them. If an MP gets a letter, about anything at all, that indicates a person who is willing to Make Effort, and therefore likely an Actual Voter. If an MP thinks a position won’t cost them much political capital, they may well support you, their constituent. Why? Because then you, someone who hadn’t previously voted for them, not only thinks hmmm maybe I should vote for this politician who has taken me seriously, but ALSO you are proud and amazed this MP has written back and taken you seriously. You tell your friends! Family! And they, for the cost of one letter and the promise to bear an issue in mind, has gained all that political capital / potential votes. From people who are more likely to be Actual Voters than your man on the street.

I sorry if I’m politics-splaining to people who already know all this stuff! But I just wanted to repeat it because I think it’s worth repeating. Write to your MP. Whoever they are and whichever way they are currently (apparently) leaning. Write to them.

Interesting: better late than never?

www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2018/08/31/green-party-announces-independent-investigation-and-no-fault-suspension-of-aimee-challenor/