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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Green Party thread 3

999 replies

FermatsTheorem · 30/08/2018 17:21

Previous thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3347925-Green-Party-statement-continuation-thread?pg=40

Will post links to AC's public statement and Caroline Lucas's appalling white wash job in a moment, but for me, Andrew Gilligan nails it yet again:
twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1034776005326581767

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 08:38

Red

You know your stuff, so seem like the right person to ask.

Is there anyway Zombie UKIP could be used and weaponised against the other parties on this issue ?

As far as I can tell they are the only party who are a hold out over SelfID.

Both Con & Lab tend to get a bit twitchy when they swipe their voters, especially in constituencies which swing a bit. And nobody likes their safe majority shrinking, I guess.

How could it be done for maximum twitch in the fastest possible time, cos the timescales are dead short here. October is not so far away.

Or will they not budge on their current position until they actually see any movement in a vote count and it's a non starter as an idea ?

Could pollsters be used in any way ? Like surveys where people self select by choosing to participate online.

It's an uphill battle to budge parties from their pro self ID line, cos it seems from their way of thinking it's not like they will lose a vote, due to the almost total lack of alternatives on the issue. And it looks like they don't believe anybody would make this a single issue hill they are willing to die on.

Is there any way they could be persuaded to see UKIP (and/or the Sargon/Paul Joseph Watson soft coup attempt) as a credible vote stealing threat on this issue, BEFORE anybody is faced with an impossible choice in the voting booth ?

Would it be worth focusing on the Cons specifically ? Because they have shifted sound bites and focus (immigration) in the past when faced with votes leaking to UKIP, whereas Labour didn't so much. In the sense, concentrated efforts pointed in one direction, putting the frighteners on the one party who would be more likely to worry about a UKIP revival from current Zombie status, might have more "Ekkkk!" effect (among all various flavoured TPTB), by being more visible than a more diffused effort aimed at all parties ?

If not, does anybody have even a glimmer of an idea that could create pressure on a/some political parties to revisit their offical stance on the issue ? A glimmer is better than a kick in the non-existent, non-man nuts. And we might be able to work something up from a diamond in the rough.

At the moment none of the 7 have anything to lose by being pro Self ID, cos they all are. One, or more of them might be persuaded to see votes to gain by dumping it. But how can they be incentivised to do so ?

placemats · 31/08/2018 09:02

Please don't scrape the barrel when it comes to getting support for Self ID. UKIP is an ultra right wing organisation. It absolutely falls into their gleeful hands for feminists, transsexuals, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans women, and heterosexuals to support them on this single issue.

I'll have no truck with UKIP.

Meanwhile there is a backlash within the Labour Women's movement against Self Id.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-facing-backlash-over-policy-on-trans-women_uk_5b851a9de4b0162f471c3a85

placemats · 31/08/2018 09:03

Kristina Jayne Harrison nails it.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1243&v=sowoe71lB6A

placemats · 31/08/2018 09:09

Kristina concludes:

'In the end only the right wing, and I actually fear, the far right, will profit from those divisions.'

CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 09:15

Please don't scrape the barrel when it comes to getting support for Self ID.

I don't want to repeat myself. But I want to win. I care not one whit about maintaining my purity of association over maintaining women's and children's legislative protection for future generations. If that means putting the willies up the tories, or any other party, by waggling Zombie UKIP at them. I'd do it. But I have no problem with other people making a different choice. We all have our own personal limits and ultimate priorities and I am very live and let live in that regard.

But first somebody like Red, who knows how things work behind the Oz curtain, needs to assess the idea for feasibility. Cos there's no point charging into something half-cocked if doomed to fail because of how things work.

Evidencebased · 31/08/2018 09:16

I think the name ' Chang's thing is a complete red herring. (David/Ballou Challenor)

Ballou( sp?) was a name he used, he even put a piece online years ago explaining why.
Suggesting that it was ever some kind of sinister attempt to disguise his identity is entirely misplaced, looks like scraping the bottom of the barrel, and detracts from the main issues.

How on earth would would being Balou Challenor, rather than David Challenor, be any kind of attempt to disguise his identity?

FlintyBadman · 31/08/2018 09:19

Amelia Womack is busy begging for votes.

Fortunately Amelia has the full support of a fine upstanding member of the Green party.

(this is on AC's 'other' Facebook account)

Green Party thread 3
Tunataka · 31/08/2018 09:20

Not to mention that Aimee's justification for appointing her father, was to strengthen their relationship...urmh.....surely THAT is not allowed!

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 09:21

Cersira, Steve Bannon used it as a tactic in the trump election. There is widespread suggestion it was a key issue which tipped 'soccer mom' types in more Conservative states.

Bannon promoted it through Breitbart where he had a senior role.

Breitbart UK was launched by Raheem Kassam who had a long association with Ukip and is part of Nigel Farage and Arron Banks inner circle. They all are well aware of how it was used to great effect in the US.

If Farage or Banks do go ahead with plans for a new party (far more likely than revival of ukip) it will be through LEAVE.EU and making a point of political correctness gone mad. Farage announced the other day that he was holding a rally for leave means leave in an area of the NW which isn't unknown for far right support. I expect transphobia and Islam phobia to be top weapons for any revival.

Since parting company with Breitbart and Trump, Bannon has announced his intention to bring the 'culture wars', to Europe as part of a strategy to destroy the EU and help far right politics across Europe.

Of late he has been known to have given advice to Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove.

Rees-Mogg recently has suddenly got the trans issue on his radar.

So to answer your question, your suggestion is way behind what is already happening and what many feminist are afraid of happening. They have been making the point that unless 'progressive' parties don't pick up on the safeguarding issues there will be an almighty backlash from the far right which will not be pretty.

It's worth pointing out that polling already shows that the working class vote has swung right. Labour is attracting less support from the working class than the Tories.

Safeguarding issues are related to poverty and the brunt of abuse is against children who are vulnerable - and more likely to be from working class backgrounds.

The left's abandonment of the working class vote in favour of middle class student politics - which is proving itself to be totally tone deaf and politically blind to safeguarding is therefore extremely politically dangerous. Not just for women but also trans people themselves and for ethnic minorities.

It's not an if. It's already well in progress.

LadybirdsAreBirds · 31/08/2018 09:21

placemats

I've seen that before. A timely reminder. Great speech from transexual Kristina Jayne Harrison

LadybirdsAreBirds · 31/08/2018 09:23

They have been making the point that unless 'progressive' parties don't pick up on the safeguarding issues there will be an almighty backlash from the far right which will not be pretty

Yes

So bloody well wakeup, Labour, Lib-dems, Greens and Conservatives. WAKE UP

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 09:27

And one that many in Labour and the Conservatives are well aware of.

May's political future might need a sensible approach to trans politics to fight off far right competition.

It's been noted by strategists, I can assure you.

Don't get in bed with the far right over this, no matter how much you want to 'win' . You have no idea how you are being used to try and achieve that goal, and what it might unleash. It would be a pyrrhic victory.

placemats · 31/08/2018 09:28

This was all the major parties stance regarding abortion, paternity leave and the pay gap in the last election according to their manifestos.

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/dd55209d-96c8-4dc5-82fd-d6e18d3dd064

Actually, the Green Party are the only party to come out within the manifesto to support the full decriminalisation of abortion. Pity a private members bill hasn't been forthcoming.

However it was a Labour MP, Diana Johnson, who brought a motion into the HOP to discuss the decriminalisation of abortion in the UK. Really worth a read.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/mps-win-right-to-challenge-victorian-law-criminalising-abortion

But UKIP? All of it has a sinister and racist undertone.

LangCleg · 31/08/2018 09:30

Safeguarding issues are related to poverty and the brunt of abuse is against children who are vulnerable - and more likely to be from working class backgrounds.

The left's abandonment of the working class vote in favour of middle class student politics - which is proving itself to be totally tone deaf and politically blind to safeguarding is therefore extremely politically dangerous. Not just for women but also trans people themselves and for ethnic minorities.

It's not an if. It's already well in progress.

This.

We're about ten seconds from a far-right backlash in which the focus of people like Tommy R changes from anti-Muslim to anti-blue hair/anti-trans. It might seem superficially attractive in that these fools would soon learn what anti-trans actually looks like and it isn't anything like what feminists are saying. But such a backlash would also take out the L, the G, and more. Don't think these people would distinguish between blue hair "feminism" and actual feminism, because they won't.

This movement needs to reflect on it misogyny but it also needs to reflect on its rampant classism too, before it's too late.

Wanderabout · 31/08/2018 09:32

Wise words:

Don't get in bed with the far right over this, no matter how much you want to 'win' . You have no idea how you are being used to try and achieve that goal, and what it might unleash. It would be a pyrrhic victory.

EverardDigby · 31/08/2018 09:44

I've just cancelled my longstanding membership and sent a message about why. Not expecting any meaningful response but I'll post it if I do get it.

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 10:04

Also, why do you think that the person raising a motion at the womens fringe of the Labour Party Conference about trans policy having not been properly debated is a councillor from ROTHERHAM. Where there were problem with the far right after the abuse scandal there because the Labour Council failed so badly through political blindness to safeguarding.

Its not a coincedence.

FermatsTheorem · 31/08/2018 10:14

Red thank you as always for being sane, well-informed and balanced - this in particular:

"Don't get in bed with the far right over this, no matter how much you want to 'win' . You have no idea how you are being used to try and achieve that goal, and what it might unleash. It would be a pyrrhic victory."

Trans people with genuine dysphoria who need to be supported against threats to their employment, housing, street harrassment, threats of actual real-world violence, women (subject to the same), children (subject to the same), ethnic minorities (subject to the same), gay and lesbian people (subject to the same) - we should all stand together to defend a practical approach to safeguarding, which balances everyone's rights and comes out with a sensible compromise. Where people can have same sex spaces, the right to free association and free speech, the right to move about the public sphere free from harrassment, discrimination and violence while having the right to hold whatever beliefs they want in the private sphere of their personal beliefs and religious affiliations.

The blue-haired brigade pushing self ID just don't get the difference between a pluralist society where people are free to hold whatever beliefs they want so long as it doesn't impinge on other people, and an authoritarian society which tells people what to think. And in pushing their brand of authoritarianism, they open the way to a massive backlash by the far right, who are also good at authoritarianism, and jack-booted violence too.

OP posts:
CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 10:59

Don't get in bed with the far right over this, no matter how much you want to 'win' . You have no idea how you are being used to try and achieve that goal, and what it might unleash. It would be a pyrrhic victory.

I sleep nightly in the far right's bed, and lump it due to a lack of choice. I have no vote here in Salvini + compliant 5* land, nor will I unless Brexit forces me to take on Italian citizenship.. Nor do I have one back home. Labour took my vote off me years ago. I drink coffee next to self declared fascists and the occasional communist (real ones, not "people who don't agree with me" ones) in the bar on a regular basis. I'd wager the extreme ends politics are more real to me than many, if not most, on the thread.

I just saw something very usual happen. A bridge collapsed. Tens of people, including little kids, dead, or with life changing injuries. Hundreds homeless. And the governments poltical reps were CHEERED, loud and long, as they arrived to pay respects in front of a sea of coffins. That might not sound significant to non Italian ears. But it was headline news in its own right for a reason.

We are far, far more used to seeing them whistled at during the latest sea of coffins and mass newly homeless event. Even though that particular cohort where not in power when "the mistakes were made".

Once they actually get in on a wave of popular backlash, they can say things that people want to hear. And their popularity increase.

The reason why we have the gov. we do, with its growing popularity so far, is because the centrist parties saw no reason to hear the low level roar of the electorate as they pushed through with policies they liked, despite the known objections from the people. And there has been the mother of all back lashes. Which, I don't think has finished yet.

I may need somewhere I can legally escape to with my family ten years from now if centrists don't start offering a viable alternative and Lega really does manage to get the country by the throat. So it's in my interests if Britain's centrists (possibly I have a different definition of centrist to most Britons, I include both Lab & Con in that) wake up and change direction on obviously unpopular policies .. yesterday. Because if they don't Zombie UKIP might not stay Zombie for long.

The result we got was not supposed to happen. Nobody was more surprised than Berlusconi when his party got eclipsed by their pet pit bull. If the conservatives are starting to come around to noticing that the electorate can and does rebel from time to time. Good.

Cos better the waggled bogeyman of Zombie UKIP, than the very much alive, kicking and vote munching phoenix that rises from the ashes.

In retrospect I wish large numbers of Italians in the centrist left/right spectrum had lied through their teeth to pollsters a year or two ago and claimed to be voting Lega the next time they got a vote. Or set up a fairly cynical "postcard to local candidate" campaign, saying they were switching to Lega if their preferred party didn't change tack on certain policies. That might have shifted our more centrist left/right just enough to step back from a cliff edge we could all end going over.

If the Cons have got the wind up them, good. I don't hold out much hope for Labour. The people currently in charge of it appear to be trying to assassinate the only party I ever voted for. There are enough examples now of what unexpected results can happen if you create a political atmosphere where large chunks of the electorate feel steamrollered. A pull back now (even a self interested one motivated by vote catching, or warding off a Zombie UKIP revival rather than principle) has to be better than the alternative.

Italian politics are notoriously hard to predict longer term. But I won't be surprised if Lega+5* consolidate and entwine more and more. To the point where they become unbeatable. Looking back, it wasn't inevitable. But the political over confidence of the centrists to essentially ignore rather a lot of the electorate made all our beds. And I am not having the most comfortable nights' sleep contemplating where this will end up. It's not like Italy doesn't have a track record in this regard.

I'd kill to go back two/three years and have a large chunk of voters cynically waggle a then much less powerful Salvini at the centre left/right. Because if that had happened, maybe we wouldn't have had so many people hold their tongue in public, and actually bloody vote for him once inside the private ballot box here up north, after giving up on the centre ever listening to them.

I know a lot of people who switched vote. As in known them personally for about a decade and a half. They aren't horrible people. They aren't stupid. Many are white collar professionals. They aren't even racist, and some of them had always leaned left. They never voted that way before. But they felt, and were, unheard. When their back was to the wall they kicked back. And we all risk some longer term deep bruises as a result. Most of them were surprised that Lega & 5* cleaned up enough to forma gov. They were making their protest vote privately, to make a small point, and didn't know how many other people were doing the same.

I don't understand enough about British politics now (there's only so much a lay person can glean via the media, with no feet on the ground). If Zombie UKIP is a non starter to shunt at least the Cons on self ID, fair enough. That's why I asked Red rather than make a firm proposal. But I hope to god you find a way back from this.

Not entirely just for your sakes. I'm selfish. I need a bolt hole back home if it all goes Horribly Wrong Again over here. And if my husband, who comes from two families with a long history of actively supporting fascism, has decided "ok for the moment, but very watchful waiting with a view to reacting early if needs be" is the order of the day, I'm inclined to take his word that we need to factor in this eventually slipping beyond the comfort zone of the "feeling unheard" people who originally made a protest vote.

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 11:16

In retrospect I wish large numbers of Italians in the centrist left/right spectrum had lied through their teeth to pollsters a year or two ago and claimed to be voting Lega the next time they got a vote. Or set up a fairly cynical "postcard to local candidate" campaign, saying they were switching to Lega if their preferred party didn't change tack on certain policies. That might have shifted our more centrist left/right just enough to step back from a cliff edge we could all end going over.

The trouble with lying like that, is pollsters usually won't be able to tell what is driving you to support a party. A tactic like this can easily backfire as being interpreted as support for extremist views rather than a much more nuanced and moderate protest against the policies for the centre left / centre right. That in turn emboldens the far right and leds to more voices saying more extremist stuff. We eventually end up in a situation where centrists aren't given air time and debate no longer is actually debate but simply polarised positions.

To put it bluntly, its simply not an effective tactic.

Making parties work for your vote, not take it for granted does not mean you need to suggest you might be considering a party which supports open and aggressive Islamaphobia. What you are saying even if you are only concerned about trans issues, is that you are prepared to turn a blind eye to Islamaphobia and don't feel uncomfortable in aligning yourself with those who promote Islamaphobia and violence / intolerance towards all trans people.

It is far better if you are talked to by pollsters to refuse to state who you will vote for and to make yourself a 'don't know' or even a 'won't vote'. That encourages debate far more in the centre and doesn't inadvertantly give power to the extremes in the process.

It is better to lobby and complain about a total lack of representation than to lie about your affliation. Make it very clear EXACTLY your line on an issue, rather than letting others make political decisions based on assumptions about what you beleive.

One of the reasons Brexit is such a mess is because the government have make assumptions about the leave vote which was driven by a whole host of reasons because the Leave campaigns were deliberately as vague as possible. As a consequence government are being led by a powerful group who have a particular agenda which is not aligned with the motivation and reasoning of many Leave voters.

The need to be crystal clear about what you actually want from politicians should not be underestimated, as vagueness can be exploited by extremists and unscruplous politicians.

CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 11:23

It is far better if you are talked to by pollsters to refuse to state who you will vote for and to make yourself a 'don't know' or even a 'won't vote'. That encourages debate far more in the centre and doesn't inadvertantly give power to the extremes in the process.

So instead of a waggled Zombie UKIP, a waggled "None of the above" could still work ?

Seeking out and completing self selecting polls, and maybe a postcard to preferred candidate saying "I'll not vote at all rather than vote for you and X policy "

How fast could something like that get off the ground and start to make impact ?

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 11:39

Yes, because it makes it clear what policy you have a problem with. Its much more focused.

Of course parties may still not listen but it doesn't give away so much power to the far right and it doesn't give the media the justification to platform extremists. It forces the media to go out and ask why so many people are abandoning party loyality / talking about X.

It encourages debate on the centre ground and thats really what you want and is your priority rather than weakening the centre by undermining it.

CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 11:46

Red

Ok that sounds like one that can fly. I'm leery of having nothing but people feeling helpless, with nothing they feel they can do rather than gather together and feel choice less. Cos from where I am sitting, that seems to encourage people to quietly wander off make protest votes. In larger numbers than even they realised were going to happen.

What would work best ? Actual via the post office post card type campaign ? Or would email still make the same sort of impact ?

What sort of search terms would pull up self selecting polls, or the kind that register (in terms of results) for the media, parties, bloggers, SM whizzes etc. ? If we can find them, we can share them.

Is there any other avenues we could consider using to raise awareness of a growth in "None of The Above" ?

Are there any specific swing constituencies worth focusing on ? Or is it better to keep it general, on a national level ?

CesiraAndEnrico · 31/08/2018 11:56

I think petitions are so overused now that they have lost their bite. I think it's possible people are sick to death of being given yet another one to sign. And the ease of digital petitions may have damaged the impact. Cos you used to have to lug a growing set of paper sheets about and not lose them (can still break out in a cold sweat about when I thought I'd lost a chunk of sheets from the "make rape within marriage illegal" one I lugged about for weeks) So if you got a lot of signatures, some serious effort had obviously gone into it. I'm not sure that peeling off the real world slog helped the power of petitions.

But I could be wrong.

Is it worth making some party specific petitions for people of different political flavours to sign ? Or would one cross party one for all flavours to sign be more effective ? How could it best be worded to hit home and shake a few from their complacency ?

LangCleg · 31/08/2018 12:03

I'd wager the extreme ends politics are more real to me than many, if not most, on the thread.

I was thinking about you earlier and pondering how different the political landscape is in Italy (got good friends there, of the Communist variety).

We're all fucked but in different ways.