What makes men angry with women?

[Italiangreyhound]

What makes men angry with women?

Is this article of any interest? Does it offer any incites?

goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hidden-reason-men-angry-women-over-nothing-chwm/

Thanks in advance if anyone reads it.

AllDayBreakfast "FWIW, I'm not posting this as a "gotcha'." Good because I'm not bothering to read it. Since it doesn't relate to what I want to talk about here, but expect others will find it fascinating.

"because its existence has been blamed on men up until now with lots of stern admonishment dished out (now seemingly unfairly!)."

Yeah poor men, we are just so fucking unfair to them.

For the record people who make pornography are not people I trust, so you can post as many links as you like, I am not clicking on them.

And the insistence to keep this conversation going in the direction that is most unhelpful is noted.

If any readers feel repeated posts about porn is actually offensive, feel free to report them.

NothingOnTellyAgain

"We are off porn aren't we?"

I had hoped so but it keeps coming back, because unless we are talking about what some posters want us to talk about, we are not doing our bit!

"It's my theory it is the other way round. The anger leads to sex. To domination etc."

Obviously not anger leading to all sex but sex being one outlet for anger, and so likely being sex where the male dominates etc.

^In reality the vast majority of sexual violence is carried out by men, against women and girls and to a lesser extent men and boys.

The two things are not equal. There is no gotcha.^

I don't think that anybody has argued that sexual violence and consumption of pornography are equal. What has been put forward is that the existence of violent porn is perhaps less of a confirmation of men'smisogyny than it is a reflection of women's sexual tastes in light of evidence that women are the primary consumers.

evidence that women are the primary consumers
I don't think we've seen sufficient evidence to justify that statement

I wonder if part of this 'anger' thing is also about men lying about women and lying about themselves. Does that have any part to play?

woman11017 'silencing... weapons in their arsenal.' Care to say more?

"I read that article, and thanks for posting OP. He is angry because he heard his mother laughing, in private with her friends, about his father?" I wonder if it is more about the separation from mother, do girls 'separate' from mamma in the same way?

"I don't think that anybody has argued that sexual violence and consumption of pornography are equal. What has been put forward is that the existence of violent porn is perhaps less of a confirmation of men'smisogyny than it is a reflection of women's sexual tastes in light of evidence that women are the primary consumers."

you have entierly misunderstood the point!

the point is that even if (and I don't beleive it for a second) female consumption is what is driving teh global porn industry and especially violent porn

the consuming of depictions where you relate to the victim of sexual violence (most of the time for women)
is NOT equivalent to consuming depictions where you relate to the perpetrator of sexual violemce (most of the time for men)

I thought it was clear but maybe not.

Italian - I agree that porn is a massive tangent. Breakfast please do start another thread - OP is right this topic is done now and only tangential to what she wants to discuss and it's been a good conversation in the main up til now.

Just listented to this...

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bgp7zd

Refashioning Shakespeare. It touches on anger and mentions the fact that when an angry man does something like kill his wife (Othello) the main questions and thoughts are around the main male protagonist as a kind of fallen hero. Rather than WTAF!

A bit like the headline in a newspaper that asked about an 'amazing' husband who killed his wife. Or another guy who killed his female partner and the radio interviewed his best friend (or whatever) who talked about him being a great guy!

Italiangreyhound

That is kind of a bad example, the reason Othello is portrayed as fallen rather then completely evil is because the murder was the result of Iago's plot to destroy Othello.

Eh, I wouldn't actually say that is gendered(Inherently that is, its probably expressed more often towards men as more Men end up on the news for this kind of stuff.) it's pretty common for some people to do everything to make someone else who committed some terrible deed seem better somehow.

Maybe their defense is that the person is just crazy or that they where a great person previously, they for some reason just don't want to view the person as evil.

Like I remember that Woman who killed her whole family back in 2017, allot of people tried to just say she suffered from mental problems and really shouldn't be held fully responsible, or that beforehand she was a great mother.
www.denverpost.com/2017/07/25/georgia-mother-accused-of-killing-family-fought-demons/
“I don’t think she’s a criminal,” said the woman’s brother-in-law. “I think she’s crazy.”
"ATLANTA — Days before she allegedly stabbed and killed virtually her entire family, Isabel Martinez prayed over candles for her recently deceased father. His soul was condemned, she feared, because he practiced witchcraft in her native Mexico. Clutching rosary beads, she put the candle flame to her hands and burned herself.

That sacrificial pain, she said, would ease her father’s suffering and eventually rescue him from hell."
"But know this: No crime has a higher success rate utilizing the insanity defense than a mother who kills her children, said Phillip Resnick, a psychiatry professor who has spent more than 40 years studying parents who killed their children.

“Juries are much less sympathetic to fathers who kill,” Resnick said."
"Sandra Romero, a cousin of Martinez’s late husband, told the agency that the children were always “healthy and happy” and she found their mother to be “very caring.”

The agency closed the case shortly thereafter.

Two years later, weeks before the stabbing incident, Martinez’s father died and, according to those who know her, that’s when everything changed.

“She used to be a calm, happy person,” said neighbor Pedro Ramirez, 15. “She invited us over to her house, had barbecues.”

“Now she’s yelling at people,” Ramirez said. “She’s just very upset.”"

It's interesting how the motives are assumed to be different when it's a man - and likely affects the statistics too as an 'insane' person may not be classified amongst the criminals.

Going back to the earlier point about 'over inflated' male ego....whilst I definitely believe this happens (male equivalent of 'princess syndrome'?) I'd say from my observations as a male that men's self esteem is actually lower than ever and that men are in many ways 'disposable'. The sky high suicide rate is evidence of this.

A lot of people only focus on the good elements enjoyed by the small number of elite males at the top. However, most blokes never get the chance to become a director, yet alone a CEO.

In fact, I'd wager than more men kill themselves annually than are made CEO (assuming there aren't 84 male CEOs appointed to blue chip companies every week?).

As a truck driver I'm pretty well paid but I certainly get to see a lot of those men who slowly destroy their bodies in daily manual jobs for little over manual wage and have no power in society - certainly not as much as a degree educated middle-class female with spending power.

My point (I drifted a bit) is that this contributes towards anger. When people have nothing to lose and become nihilistic they become dangerous.

“I wasn’t expecting testosterone to have such an effect on how I think. "
interesting link

I certainly get to see a lot of those men who slowly destroy their bodies in daily manual jobs for little over manual wage and have no power in society
Swings and roundabouts, carers break their backs and get minimum wage, sometimes less if they are home carers not paid for mileage.
I think men think the grass is greener, and women think likewise. It depends on what your priorities are. Want agency, autonomy, more money, more options, less expectation, no pressure to look a certain way and the ability to walk around at night? Better as a man. Want better interpersonal skills, the ability to bear children and to have better orgasms? Be a woman. However if you stacked the pros and cons women have it worse. If you list them outside the western world, there is absolutely no contest.
I recognise that men have a lot of issues and I think the male suicide rate is tragic. I try my best to see things from both sides, and treat people as individuals (without being stupidly woke about it, if you approach me on the street at night I'm going to avoid you, sorry!)
But OP is right, men are angry at women. For being presumptuous, for being emotionally and sexually unavailable, for being promiscuous, for being too affectionate, for not earning enough and putting all the pressure on them, for earning too much and making them feel bad. For being beautiful, for being ugly, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for challenging, for being acquiescent, I could go on but it's depressing. And the fundamental difference is this: a rejected man, with nobody to turn to, may not speak to another human being outside work. He may have nobody touch him, hug him, nothing. A man alone is very alone, I grant you that. But he still has control, he can choose his reaction. A woman in a DA situation is in fear of her life. All those women murdered every week. All those women with no financial independence. With partners who control their phone, their money, what they do and where they go. With kids at home, and nowhere to go. How many women are in that exact situation right now in the UK? Millions. How many women live like that in Chad, or Pakistan or Nicaragua? The majority. Girls who live in fear, who don't get educated, who have no options. Women with no options. They might live somewhere where their fundamental human rights are non existent compared to a man's.
Honestly if either sex has the right to be angry, it's females. No contest. I can say that whilst still acknowledging men's issues. The MRA stuff doesn't wash with me, I've read so much of it that even the valid points no longer resonate with me like they once did.

I'm in agreement with most of what you say.

In truth, (and I appreciate I've been a bit of an argumentative fucker) it dismays me that men and women aren't able to work together nearly as well as they might to tackle these issues. The average person on the street is absorbed in their day to day life, and the groups most knowledgeable about the struggles faced by their individual genders spend most of their time fighting 'the enemy' rather than finding ways to work together.

I've seen the following exchange happen so many times before:

Feminist: "You need to sort this out, it's your responsibility as a man to sort out your gender's violent behaviour."

Man: "Um, I dont even know that alcoholic nutter down the street that just beat his wife to death and attacked the cops with a bat. Most men aren't like that and I certainly don't associate with any that are."

Feminist: "Ha, now you're NAMALTING. I knew you would..."

The problem I see with splitting it down by gender (although it's undoubtedly useful at times for analysing data) is that it arguably absolves one party of any social responsibility.

I mean, I could say "FGM....pah that's a Muslim problem to sort. Same with forced marriage."

"Indian men raping a female goat....bloody Indians need to sort their shit out."

"Alcohol fuelled violence against women....not in my middle class neigbourhood. Bloody working class louts!"

"Transwomen? Male violence? Nothing to do with me! I'm straight!"

Another issue is that people don't respond well to orders. If my local counsellor asked me whether I'd give a few days a month to help keep vulnerable male youths off the street I'd probably be more than hsppy to give some time or allow them to attend my boxing club FOC. However, if she said "as a man, you need to sort out these little troublemakers", I'd say "jog on, Mrs, nothing to do with me."

Good points.

PudgyFriend "I wouldn't actually say that is gendered(Inherently that is, its probably expressed more often towards men as more Men end up on the news for this kind of stuff."

Does that mean the same as more men kill their wives and partners than vice versa? Because if so, I won't disagree with that.

So the example of a female family annihilator is also spoken of in the press as being good or whatever despite a terrible crime. So, yes, in that example it is the same crime and the same reporting.

Except family annihilators are almost always male.

www.wired.co.uk/article/family-killers

So I do think these types of crimes are more sex-based (as in the sex of the person committing the crime) than not.

AllDayBreakfast "In truth, (and I appreciate I've been a bit of an argumentative fucker)..."

You don't say

I'll look at your last two posts in reverse order, since your second post seems more about avoiding responsibility (which I don't think anyone wants to place at your door anyway) and your earlier post seems to show flashes of self awareness....

" ...it dismays me that men and women aren't able to work together nearly as well as they might to tackle these issues."

Why do you think that is?

I'll ignore all the goat/Indian/alcohol examples you give since I am not sure women are asking 'specific' men to sort out 'specific' examples of violence. But your examples show that you're not focusing on the pattern behind these examples, which is what I think I'd like to get at.

"I'd say from my observations as a male that men's self esteem is actually lower than ever and that men are in many ways 'disposable'."

So the 'princess syndrome' you speak of affects a tiny minority of females who are privileged. But you are speaking of men in general in terms of being disposable?

What do you think makes men feel 'disposable'; lots of women also have low paid jobs etc. What is it about being male that makes men feel disposable, in your opinion? This is a genuine question.

"When people have nothing to lose and become nihilistic they become dangerous."

Are you saying you don't feel women can feel they have nothing to lose? Because I think they can. Yet do women become 'dangerous' in the same numbers if they feel they have nothing to lose?

What is it about being male?

And how might males be more invested in society/life whatever to make this danger subside, and make thoughts of suicide leave those who are suicidal?

I read the article and the responses found this a very interesting discussion. I very much agree both with the posters who said women have far more to fear than men from the opposite sex, & also on how a man alone is very very alone. Also I do think the point of the huge lack of self-esteem in many men who will never be CEOs etc is a very valid one. As to why so many men are angry with women, I would say I think very many men are angry with everyone, with other men who for example might be career or sexually more successful than them, with themselves for not being world champion of everything, & yes with women for all the reasons mentioned. There are also of course men who are angry only with women, & men who are only angry with themselves. Then there are men who are not angry with any one.
A couple of additional points I would make. I think the historical fact that men have been considered expendable e.g as conscripts in wars where women have not been conscripted (albeit of course historically suffering horrendous abuses such as rape by invaders etc), the power that men feel that only women have to judge or question their masculinity and a perception based on mistaking all women for conventionally attractive young women in the West that women have it easier attracting a mate all come into play. Finally I think there is a far far greater level of self-loathing among men than anyone has admitted. Other than a recent survey mentioned in the BBC Horizon programme about male suicide I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence to back it up, but I think it is quite possible that almost all or a significant majority of men seriously consider suicide at one or many points. So a sea of anger sometimes in which women are caught up, sometimes which is directed at them. I really think the only thing that can stave this off is love and specifically men and women both acknowledging the value of the non romantic love that men are capable of but hardly ever encouraged to show.

Turph I've read that article before, I think they sound lovely people but it's not really a surprise what they say.

Your post is brilliant (ly sad) and so true. If men are beginning to realize that patriarchy and toxic masculinity is, well, toxic, why are they not trying to tear it down?

I wonder if the men who are alone actually do have children they no longer see, or aged parents they don't care for (even from a remote location, I am not talking about giving up a job to care for an elderly relative - I've heard women say they care for relatives but have brothers who do not).

So if men are angry and upset, why are they not looking for genuine solutions? I really do not think they want to bear children (maybe a few, but not many), I don't most men think their children are not their own, I'm sure they all want more money and free time, I certainly do too, so somewhere there is this entitlement to having things answered for them/sorted for them or something.

I can't stop going back to mum!!!

Have you seen Skyfall? Do you remember the scenes with
Javier Bardemas as Raoul Silva talking about Judi Dench as M. I know it is only a film and done for affect. But it is very chilling.

I absolutely must say I do not blame anyone's mum. But I wonder if feeling around mothers feeds into feelings against women?

I think it does. The whole world is telling them they should be in charge and the other half of the population should be a decorative object to enhance them and there must be something terribly wrong at their house because there is a woman not womaning right.

Italiangreyhound

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was saying that more Men do that "(Inherently that is, its probably expressed more often towards men as more Men end up on the news for this kind of stuff.)", so I don't know why you went on that tangent.

"Your post is brilliant (ly sad) and so true. If men are beginning to realize that patriarchy and toxic masculinity is, well, toxic, why are they not trying to tear it down?'

"Well life has went on for quite sometime under that system, why risk trying something new that you are not sure will work when you have something that has more or less managed to work on a overall scale for many generations, it doesn't always work out well but it works enough." That is probably what many men think.

Italiangreyhound yes it was on TV recently and you're right. Chilling.
I take your point about feckless sons, there's a lot of that. Not all men etc etc but generally it's the female child who devotes (some) time to elderly parents. I say "some" because in the UK it's generally not much in comparison to countries with extended families who spend time together. We're like the US and hive off into nuclear families where possible.
Regarding the rest of your post, I think it might be because men can't think outside the box in terms of their role and how they fit. It's quite regimented. Works well most of the time, very ordered. But when a man is alone? You'd think he'd adapt but no. He breaks down, or he finds a replacement woman sharpish (widowers remarry much more quickly than widows). Or he goes feral.
You see old men sometimes, the type who never settled down, in a pub at opening time, a pint in one hand and their teeth in a glass on the table, their trousers held up with a string "belt". Invariably they look much older than their actual age. They meet the same men and drink together in the pub, or the park, and have the same conversation over and over again. I guess they seem happy but when you compare them to married men the same age it's like night and day.
I won't go into MGTOW because it's like the reverse of Fight Club. All MGTOWers seem to do is go on about it incessantly, in the vain hope Women will send an emissary to ask their forgiveness and welcome them back into the fold

I'm also think there is a feeling in the West at least that men are in relative decline and women are relatively in the ascendant. When you are at the bottom and dealing with that you may not enjoy it but you like of know you can deal with it because you are there and the only way is up. I think some men feel (incorrectly) that feminism seeks not gender equality but for men to occupy the position of no or little power that women have, as a kind of retribution and without the panacea of warm and supportive same sex relationships which they see as a female preserve. Descending from the top without any guarantee of a floor beneath you is possibly less appealing than ascending from a floor you are already on

something that has more or less managed to work on a overall scale for many generations
But it never worked how they believe it did. Anemoia. Men in the past didn't have it easier.
The bits men nowadays ignore about what their fathers and grandfathers had to deal with include far less sexual opportunity, a much smaller choice of wife, possible "shotgun weddings", hard dirty physical work that killed them at a young age, no opportunity to travel, or study, or to choose a career different from what was on offer according to where they lived and what class they were, the complete burden of providing financially, and if his wife had to work he would have been ashamed, hungry children who often died, a wife who might have died in childbirth, war, war, a bit more war and real financial hardship. Those MRAs who hark back to 1950s America have picked the only country and the only decade where life was as they describe it, and even then many men didn't live in a Norman Rockwell painting.
It's just intellectual laziness to all agree that life was perfect before those pesky feminists came along and ruined men's lives, but that's genuinely what they believe.
And men were no less angry at women in Victorian times, or WW2 etc. So the argument doesn't even hold water.

I think some men feel (incorrectly) that feminism seeks not gender equality but for men to occupy the position of no or little power that women have
And this is the paranoia that means Saudi clerics go on TV to say driving cars damages the womb. It's nothing new. Men are terrified of women gaining control since we were blamed for the downfall of Adam, or the Roman Empire.