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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What makes men angry with women?

427 replies

Italiangreyhound · 29/08/2018 01:52

What makes men angry with women?

Is this article of any interest? Does it offer any incites?

goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hidden-reason-men-angry-women-over-nothing-chwm/

Thanks in advance if anyone reads it.

OP posts:
PackingSoap · 03/09/2018 09:11

ItalianGreyHound

Re: females being the more lustful.

I can't find the book that has the key paragraph about this that I wanted to share with you (it was about a 17th century advice pamphlet for men exorting them to pretty much think that of England when faced with their husbandly duties) but I did find some relevant stuff in Sex in Georgian England by A D Harvey.

I'll see if I can upload an image of a good page.

PackingSoap · 03/09/2018 09:21

Okay, here we go.

What makes men angry with women?
PackingSoap · 03/09/2018 09:23

And the next page...

What makes men angry with women?
PackingSoap · 03/09/2018 09:46

It seems that something changed at the beginning of the 18th century vis a vis the notion that women were sexually rapacious. This makes sense when you look at earlier literature that features Moll Flanders, The Wife of Bath etc, and also puts the medieval monastic experience for men in a different light.

The idea that women were the drivers for civilisation is a notion I've not seen anywhere else, so I suppose you could say it's my personal pondering.

It comes from a variety of bits of data. I've always wondered how, as a female, you cope with menstruation, gestation, lactation and child rearing while nomadic. When you look at tribal behaviour, there is a pattern of temporary residency for the seasons and I just wonder whether that is specifically to deal with that dynamic.

Then there's other things, like historical reports of pre-Roman British behaviour whereby small groups of men (between eight and twelve with two or three women) operate as a mobile hunting unit. Then there's the connection between wandering, movement across the land in a solitary/small group paradigm and the male experience: the Aboriginal walkabout is a good example here.

And when you factor in the selection of upper body strength, muscle mass, body density in males, it all points to selection for hunting and movement across land. Civilisation prevents this; it's static. And I do wonder whether it creates an anxiety in males that is only partially recognised. You could argue that they are in cages in some respects, that civilisation is a cage for the male because it prevents them from doing what they are selected to do in an evolutionary sense.

Fatherhood is another interesting one because it's another area where understandings have changed over time. My feeling that fatherhood tied to the notion of bloodline is a Roman phenomenon because of the paterfamilias system where fatherhood denotes personal financial, political and social responsibility for a dependent. And, of course, that again is tied to geographic settlement, civilisation and rights over land.

There's a lot to unpick and I may be utterly wrong, but you have to ask who benefits from settlement, and my feeling is that it is women.

Totheend · 03/09/2018 10:41

"Even in the 70s from what I know you had the joy of sex and porn involved beardy men and bemuffed women having sex in a much more give and take way >> mainstream.

Throttling, anal, facials, slapping etc were pretty niche.

It's social, this change.

It has been brought about by the industry as they seek to give the customers more / new etc but for sure there aren' very many men who are saying OMG that's grim that poor woman I'm switching it off.

The grossest stuff is used by men as bonding material >> they watch on their phones together, laughing and "grossed out" at what the women on the screen are doing or having done to them.

Add message | Report | Message poster NothingOnTellyAgain Sun 02-Sep-18 21:20:16

  • gang rape is a thing and in a smaller way men in groups acting togteher to humiliate / assault women in clubs and stuff, laughing together over her reaction

men bond over upsetting / hurting / degrading women. normal men. this is anger isn't it. or not anger >> dislike. they don't like us. and we're back to this push / pull >> they don't like us but they want us / need us. And that is what makes them angry"

NothingonTellyAgain, you are full of it. If anything any increase in hardcore pornography is probably aimed at the female market as all research has found that such pornography is actually vastly more popular among Women then Men, and also overall Men do not prefer such Porn. Also I would like to note that this entire time you've been doing nothing but spewing baseless claims and not providing a single source to back anything you say up.
www.vice.com/en_ca/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn
mic.com/articles/122962/pornhub-study-reveals-women-want-hardcore-porn#.btbrpCHRz

AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 12:32

I'm surprised at that statistic but can believe it. When surveyed, I believe 50% of women purported to enjoy 'rough sex' and I believe that rape fantasies are more commonplace than one would've believed (I don't really understand the appeal, but guess the fantasy is more about being ravished by a hunk than some creepy neckbeard stalker dude).

AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 12:37

Just read that link. I'm really surprised that a quarter of searches made by women are for violent porn! And that 62% of those surveyed fantasise about forced sex.

Baumederose · 03/09/2018 12:41

I'd be exceptionally interested to know how they identified and established the searches were made by women.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 12:49

"NothingonTellyAgain, you are full of it. "

Awesome argument Grin

No attempt to engage with the, what, entire 4 pages of women's thoughts, just copy and paste some posts about porn and "you're full of it!!"

You sound a little angry Smile

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 12:50

Baumederose

Strangely, when they go looking for poeple who have downloaded illegal porn, they're all men.

It's really confusing to reconcile how 50% of people who enjoy viewing and are super keen on extreme porn on surveys by porn site looking at self reported sex, are never in evidence when the arrests happen.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 12:52

The idea that violent and degrading and illegal porn is driven by women is preposterous.

Look at all the people who have gone to prison recently for killing their parter during "rough sex" (hahaha) it's all blokes.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 12:54

This is a total derail isn't it.

Anyone who picks up one poster and attacks them and fails whatsoever to engage with any of the rest of the very very long thread, or indeed the questions posed in the OP, is a derailer.

Prob best ignored TBH.
Not much point getting dragged into a convo with a person that thinks women are red hot keen on being throttled to death as a part of sex, are somehow driving the rape stats and causing gang rape, and are the ones who are interested in csa.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 12:55

The primary advocate for the legalisation of extreme porn in the UK is a woman.
A transwoman.
So. Whatever.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 03/09/2018 14:26

This is interesting. Particularly PackingSoaps historical posts.
Personally I think it all went wrong for humans when we stopped hunter gathering and started farming and owning land, so the overcrowding thing is interesting.
I don't know why so many men hate women but it's clear they do. Sometimes I think it's anger born out of a sense of entitlement and them not getting what they think they deserve.
Sometimes I think it's grown from the fact that until very recently a man could never be sure a child was his.
I dont agree that men are naturally more interested in sex (sex not porn i mean).
Even hundreds of years ago female sexuality was accepted as being very complex and powerful-the Karma Sutra shows this. Maybe the fact that we can have multiple orgasms for example made men fear and resent us, or feel insecure that their sexuality is a little more basic?
Its only in the last couple of hundred years thst women's sexuality has been seen as only existing in relation to men, or that we have been condidered less sexual. I think that has coincided with industrialisation but I'm not sure why!
Aside from the sexual gatekeeping/paternity aspect, the anger men feel toward women probably comes from the fact that for so long they have been unequivocally in charge, and yet they need women emotionally. To be dependent on someone you are supposed to perceive as lesser is confusing. I definitely feel that separate spaces for men and women are really important and that sometimes the nuclear family set up is detrimental to both sexes. I think men do need to develop emotional bonds with other men, in the same way women do, but often they don't and are totally reliant on women for their wellbeing.
As I have got older and less pretty I am struck by the contempt a lot of men show me, which they obviously hid when I was younger.
For example, I traded my very manly looking car for one often driven by older women. I'm a competent driver and never had any problem on the roads in my manly car. .now I'm cut up, beeped at, tailgated always by angry looking men. The contempt shown to older or "unfuckable" women is astonishing. Not just on the roads but at work, in life, generally.

I do actually know plenty of men who don't fit this mould-who do cry, who are chuffed when their wives do well ( dp would love me to make a ton of money so he could go sailing all day!), and who don't express anger to women, but that doesn't mean it's not a deeply entrenched problem for many many men.
And it is down to them to fix it. I wish they would but so far they don't seem to even want to aknowledge it.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 16:45

Good post IfNotNow

The contempt towards the older "unfuckable" woman is interesting.

Ignoring would be easy. Why the anger? That is about space I reckon (back to the rats!).

My dad would reckon himself a pretty modern chap but there's an interesting thing when driving that essentially he feels that the roads should be emptier and the only poeple driving should be people he approves of. Namely, middle class fairly well off not too young men, who know how an engine works. Anyone outside of that, you get the sense, he resents being there, taking up space, holding things up.

This is entitlement again, isn't it. He doesn't deep down see women as entitled to be on the road. + loads of other groups. But there is a particular tone of voice reserved for women drivers.

AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 17:58

I'd be exceptionally interested to know how they identified and established the searches were made by women.

My guess would be that they look at which they've selected in their profile, although would only cover members, which I would imagine are the minority of users.

However, it seems that 'Porn for Women' is one of the most popular categories and I can't imagine it's men who are watching this.

According to Pornhub, the top three trending searches were “Porn for Women”, “Rick and Morty” and “Fidget Spinners.”

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 18:14

Fidget spinners were a child's craze a year or so ago.

Like, primary school.

Based on that I am dubious about their stats tbh

Italiangreyhound · 03/09/2018 18:54

Desperate to get away from the porn but I must admit I plan to watch this documentary. The article say hecwasca very angry man.

I may be mad, will find I upsetting but I want to see the situation.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/husbands-paedophile-still-love/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

NothingOnTellyAgain "The net has facilitated angry men gettign together to be angry - MRAs, incels, red pillers, MGTOW and all the rest of it. "

I agree. 100%

But does anyone want to talk about just the anger and the start of it? Does anyone new want to respond to the article?

And does anyone have any ideas how we can change this? Can we not change it? Because it's men? I hate that thought.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 19:29

Also think a good idea to get away from the porn!

It's a symptom, and one that I think adds to the problem (a lot) but it's not the root cause.

AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 19:30

I'll admit I was a bit surprised about the fidget spinner bit, but having searched for it out of curiosity there appear to be fidget spinner videos on there. I'd imagine it's either something people search for out of comedic value, or it's high in the ranks due to its specificity - I'd imagine there are so many phrases that get used in typical searches.

woman11017 · 03/09/2018 19:32

This is away from it......reactions to female panel on new BBC politics programme.

What makes men angry with women?
AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 19:34

Regarding the women watching violent porn....it does surprise me a little, but with the trend in recent years towards tatoos/beards etc, I'd imagine that things like body modification, which is linked somewhat to the bdsm scene, have also seen a rise in popularity.

I remember reading an interview with Amy Winehouse ages ago and IIRC she was talking about how her and her boyfriend liked to cut each other and had matching scars etc.

AllDayBreakfast · 03/09/2018 19:38

A poignant question now is whether those women who are anti-porn should be able to police what other women watch? It's a totally different dynamic/argument if it's women watching it in large numbers.

IcedPurple · 03/09/2018 20:31

Ultimately, imho it comes down to the fact that men need women much more than women need men. The human race would survive perfectly well if we had 10 women for every man, but would die out quite soon if there were 10 men for every women. Hypothetical, I know, but just goes to show that women are much more indispensable than men. And men know it.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/09/2018 20:48

I'm not really sure poignant is the right word?

I think that the "women do it too" is a red herring.

The conversation about the good / evils of porn have come from the question >> why are men so angry with women >> and the content of an awful lot of mainstream porn backs this up. Whether women watch it too etc is a separate conversation >> in the area of anger>> women don't really do it too.

Women as a group are not angry towards men in the same way they are towards us.
Even feminists described by men as "man haters" are generally looking for answers, how can things be improved, why is this happening, can we change it etc >> eg this thread.
While the "other side" as it were are calling for women to be raped, killed, dished out as chattel, have their rights stripped etc etc

Reminds me of the Dworkin quote:

"“I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”

So I suppose there are 2 questions really:

What makes men so angry with women (OP tacitly accepts as a given that they are)
And
Why aren't women more angry with men?

Maybe the 2 are linked.